Creation is an act of sheer will. Next time it will be flawless...(est. 2016)
 
Jurassic Mainframe NewsHomeCalendarAbout UsJurassic-PediaFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
AuthorMessage
Bionic
Hatchling
Hatchling
avatar

Posts : 66
Points : 250
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2018-06-12

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:25 pm

Well good for you but for me this rather messy movie is the worst in the series beside JP3.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Tyrant Lizard
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Posts : 1226
Points : 2798
Reputation : 93
Join date : 2016-06-07
Location : Over there

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:32 pm

@owenpratt wrote:
I found FK to be one of the most entertaining of the franchise actually. I like TLW but now THAT one was a bit boring a few times (but still entertaining in general).

I think I just will never understand some of your points lol which I think it's good for me, since I enjoyed the film and I'm happy about this.

Good on ya. I found the movie a bit messy, and as it stands right now it's still probably my least favorite other than JP3 (although still a huge step up from JP3), but at the end of the day it's all subjective. Like a said a while back, don't let anybody try to change your mind. If you loved it, that's all that matters.

If anything, i envy you for getting more out of the film than I did.

_______________
Dinosaurs still rule the earth

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Dv-218
Ceratosaurus
Ceratosaurus
avatar

Posts : 180
Points : 384
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2018-05-30

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:47 pm

^I agree with that. Even though I will say that I don't think it's anywhere near JP3 levels of bad- for me, it's honestly sided with JW, not sure which one I prefer the most (i'll admit FK gets a slight edge from me purely for aestethic reasons...).
But, like you said, this is all an opinion- it's absoulutely fine if you like the movie, but it's just as valid to criticize it and point out it's flaws. I will agree that the pacing is messy and I think they started with the whole "dinos on the mainland" thing way too fast.
However, I will stand by the point I made in my previous post that I don't understand where (aside from eating mills/vaguely the carno-gyrosphere scene) people get the heroic rexy thing from this movie lol.
(I do hope she will be more of a menace in JW3, if she even appears/doesn't die offscreen).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lost
Ceratosaurus
Ceratosaurus
avatar

Posts : 183
Points : 1136
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2016-06-11

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:49 pm

I think it was a good point about Franklin's silly scream in the middle of the baryonyx attack. The scene had such potential for suspense, and was so beautifully shot. Can you imagine if in the middle of the t-rex breakout in JP Grant had screamed in a silly and girlish way, just to get a cheap laugh out of the audience? It would've ruined the whole thing. But that's Hollywood in 2018 for ya.


Last edited by Lost on Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Spiegel
Ankylosaurus
Ankylosaurus
avatar

Posts : 444
Points : 2976
Reputation : 25
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : Waverly, NY

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:49 pm

@owenpratt wrote:
@Spiegel wrote:
Its full of plot holes

Creates new questions while answering none

1) It lacks character development

2) It has to back track and change the first movie to fit in with its plot despite Trevvorrow basically creating both movies

3) It throws 3 huge and different plot themes at you without finishing a single one

4) Its treated more like the public bus taking you from Stop 1 at Jurassic World to Stop 2 Jurassic World 3

5) Its got so much action it clearly wants to be a summer action, popcorn chomping flick

6) It didnt really live up to some of the promises it made (more dinosaurs than ever before, but only for like 20 seconds)

7) Its trying to compete with super hero movies with what they did with Blue

Cool It relies on a viral marketing campaign to make up for a lack of script

9) Speaking of script, it feels like it was written by a 12 year old "Then a volcano goes off, then a carnotaurus attacks, then the trex ambushes the carnotuarus, then they fall of a cliff, then they're stuck in the gyrosphere."


1) Owen from the beginning of the movie and Owen from the end of the movie is different. Claire as well has a subtle development (not as obvious as JW one). Maisie's journey that brings her to that final decision might be consider as her arc. But anyway, did Jurassic Park saga ever had brilliant character arcs, except maybe for Grant in JP and Claire in JW (which was even hated by some, for some reasons)? Hammond had an arc that took two movies to come full circle. Did Jurassic Park have super complex villains? Like, was Nedry anything more special than Mills?

2) For example? The opening scene I think it's justified since it would be easier to create a new hybrid from the bone directly. Claire caring for the dinosaurs was implied in JW when she cried over the dead Apatosaurus. The Indoraptor is the realization of Hoskin's words in JW.

3) The volcano plot got resolved (even in a great way, with that emotional scene); the auction scene brings to the dinosaurs being taken all over the world; Maisie being a clone brings to her final decision and to the fact genetic power has been unleashed and the ethical limits have been crossed (without counting how it restrospectively gives more backstory to John Hammond's character)

4) Mmm, it does also that but I think it has its own identity. I mean, "Empire Strikes Back" takes you from EpIV to EpVI but it also has its own identity..?

5) Well, it is a summer blockbuster like all JP movies were at the time they got released. But it also has some deep ethic controversial stuff and animalistic messages, just like JP or TLW.

6) I actually think FK showed the most various range of dinosaurs of all the franchise. It added Carnotaurus, Baryonyx, Stigymoloch, Indoraptor, Sinoceratops, all with lovely and various colors/designs. There are also carnivore vs herbivores fights, massive stampede sequences, they're treated like animals (except for the few "heroic" moments, that I might agree with).

7) What?

8 ) The viral marketing would be there even with an Oscar-worthy script. I agree that they should have added just like 30-60 seconds screentime just to clarify a few things without hurting the pacing or whatever. That said, while flawed, I found the script to be at least very interesting on a deeper level, despite plot holes here and there (which both films like JW or TLW had)

9) I think that the purpose was to make a long massive action set piece that starts with Owen vs lava and ends with the underwater gyrosphere tracking shot. If you try to enjoy that, it is probably one of the most entertaining action-packed sequences you might witness in these last few years. Also, I think Mad Max: Fury Road would be written by a 12 years old since it's just one long 90 minutes desert chase..? Also, Bayona directed these sequences, and they are great-looking.


Yeah, I loved this movie and I'd really be so happy if more people could see the beauty I see in it lol

1. Owen saying "No I dont want to go to a place we can so easily die" and Claire saying "You're a good man" is hardly any kind of deep development. Claire so an Apatosaurus die and we are supposed to except that it changed her that much? We dont really get a very detailed look at the thoughts that led her here. A few lines of dialogue could have completely changed that. Maise being told she is a clone is the most weak reason in the world for her to release the dinosaurs. It felt as if that was merely introduced to give her a reason to set the dinosaurs free. How does a 10 year old process that in minutes, while being chased by a monster, and decide that she has so much in common with the dinosaurs she should set them free? Imagine if she had just been told she was adopted and now multiple that by 100 or take the other side and realize she has no idea what it even means. "They're alive like me" is such a weak line, but its be expected from such a weak plot device.

2. That's not what Im referring but just proves how silly that the guy who made the first film wrote the second and couldnt keep his crap together. I was referring to how Blue and Owen have a very slight relationship in JW. She contributes to attacking him after the young guy falls in the paddock. She also turns her back on them after the Indominus "communicates" with the Raptors. She also comes pretty close to attacking him after the flee the innovation center. Now, however, we see old film logs of their bond and are expected to believe that 3 years of being feral and completely un-socialized with even her own species, she's got a bond with him that is inseparable as time itself. Its more of a relationship than Claire and Owen have.

3. Volcano and the auction weren't really plot points but rather vessels to get us to the plot points. The final ideas of the movies, that we are left with are: Dinosaurs are free in the United States, Dinosaurs have been sold to shady characters, people can be cloned, and Wu made off with the ability to continue his work. Those are the important take away points aside from Nublar is destroyed. Not one of them is resolved or really expanded on in any detail. Its like 4 huge cliff hangers. Meanwhile, every other JP/JW film has had a resolution whether it be leaving the island, shipping the Rex back to Sorna, escaping the island, or escaping the island (In order) These points take us to 4. (The only exception is the JP/// Pterosaurs)

4. There is no real resolution or even hint to it, just wide open so that the fan base can go crazy with stupid ideas for 3 years. I'm not a fan of that at all. There is a guy arguing on YouTube with me right now about how great dinosaurs would be for the military for example. We've got people talking about dinosaurs breeding on the mainland but we aren't even sure if they are male or female or just a single sex. I've made jokes about the clone wars and dino-riders because we are left so far hanging on what any of this truly means we can expect the fan base to become a mess of bickering head canons.

5. Yes, it does have some deep ethical issues but they arent really explored that much. Look at how much we saw in both JP and JW about the issues they had, especially from Malcolm but others as well. Here we just get a few minutes of Claire trying to raise money and 45 seconds of Malcom talking about his side at the beginning and end of the film. It wasn't enough to make me pick a side or even question it.

6. Jurassic Park gave us insight into TRex ocular function, ruthlessness and intelligence of raptors, and Gallimimus "flocking".
TLW gave us the Parental instincts of the Trex.
JP/// gave us a Spinosaurus that was insanely aggressive, Raptor parental instincts, and Pterandon hunting as well as some insight into their parental instincts and nature.
JW gave us a further exploration of Raptor intelligence, some insight into Mosaurus hunting, and Ankylosaur defending itself. Heck, in the Gyrosphere seen you can watch two Parasaurs start to push and shove eachother around. We also got insight in how hybrids act due to the mix of genes.
JWFK We got no real expansion on any of that. Just brief glimpses really or nothing really special. Yes it was great seeing them all but I want to know so much more but will I ever? At the way this is going, no.

7. Owen and his super hero skills that literally have people asking on different sites if he is a Navy Seal. Blue and her ability to use a round house tail whip to knock a guy over. Their inability to be hurt and their heroic feats are one the most focused on parts of the film.

8. Two or three lines about Sorna, for example, would not kill it. Instead I have to go to a website and read about it. Sure, as a rather invested fan I will be the general audience shouldn't have to. Its not like most people forgot about 2 films. I found the script lacking, I dont remember memorable conversations or points that truly made me think. Also, going into the past and pointing out what the previous film did wrong doesn't make it ok that this one did the same. If you're not learning from your mistakes in film making than what are you doing? Just making money . . .

9. Its a cool series of events that if stretched out a little more could fill an entire movie. These crazy scenes, while fun, do not replace dialogue and plot. I want a conversation over Chilean sea bass, arguments about mistakes of the past coming back to bite you, characters pointing out InGen's secrets like cloning Spinosaurs, or even discussion about probably socializing animals. Just anything more than we have here.

Its not a horrible film but its just a fast paced action movie that has some horror-ish elements. It didnt answer questions, it created more. It didnt create great memorable characters, it just sold us the return of the same ones from last movie but without further delving into them. Do we really care if it was Owen or Claire or would it have just been fine for Steve and Mary to take their roles.

I dont love this movie, though I kind of like it (5 or maybe 6 out of 10) but I dont want the franchise to close out on a hollow movie. I want things wrapped up, resolved, explained by characters I want to survive the ordeal. This just felt like a hollow addition that's little more than a give me your money and i'll give you some cool action movies. So, in my mind, running around being a huge fan boy of a movie with so little development isnt helping that.

_______________
Jurassic Role Play: Live The Legend Redux
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://s15.zetaboards.com/JurassicRolePlay/index/
Lost
Ceratosaurus
Ceratosaurus
avatar

Posts : 183
Points : 1136
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2016-06-11

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:07 pm

One thing that really bothered me was how Owen, who apparantly cares so much for and loves Blue, gets asked if they should just let her die, and he replies "Well, yeah!!". WTF was that? It seriously made me uncomfortable, and I don't even give a shit about the whole Blue subplot.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Spiegel
Ankylosaurus
Ankylosaurus
avatar

Posts : 444
Points : 2976
Reputation : 25
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : Waverly, NY

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:17 pm

Its like Bayonna made a great film with a crappy script is what it comes down to.

Make me love the characters or at least feel attached to them. Make me want to see them survive or be in a relationship. Show me how Franklin went from helping on the boat to being disguised as a lab technician. Tell me more about the the Indoraptor so that I understand how lethal it is. Show me dinosaurs interacting or doing something aside from biting at things or jumping off a cliff. Great, take away Nublar but drop a minute or two worth of dialogue that tells me what happened to Sorna. Show me a little bit of Claires transformation. Dont show me how ferocious raptor are even when partially domesticated and trained but then go back and make them caring and sympathetic. Dont take an animal behaviorist that got by on his wits and turn him into someone that everyone thinks must be some special forces operator because he's such a bad ass brawling machine.

Just stop with the crap. You cant replace the original awe and wonder of JP but you can keep the science and the scientist heroes. You can show me unique and interesting things about the dinosaurs aside from a glimpse and Allosaurus before it eats a lava chunk from the sky. Make me think about the actual issues in the movie so that I feel like both sides have an argument and I'm not sure who to side with.

I just want some thought, not just a great tracking scene or scary horror mansion.

_______________
Jurassic Role Play: Live The Legend Redux
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://s15.zetaboards.com/JurassicRolePlay/index/
Lost
Ceratosaurus
Ceratosaurus
avatar

Posts : 183
Points : 1136
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2016-06-11

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:36 pm

Good post. And that was another one of those unnecessary WTF moments: Franklin all of a sudden being in a lab coat and Wu giving him orders. It just makes the whole thing more of a joke, and that really annoys me. Jurassic Park had some nice subtle humor, it didn't aim to get guffaws out of the audience. Like I said earlier, imagine if during the t-rex breakout in JP, Grant had screamed a loud and silly and girlish scream to get a cheap laugh from the audience. Scene ruined.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
CT-1138
Jurassic Mainframe News Team
Jurassic Mainframe News Team
avatar

Posts : 894
Points : 3673
Reputation : 60
Join date : 2012-04-06
Location : Chicago

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:44 pm

@Robotpo wrote:
Look at the reviews article at Jurassic Outpost for one thing.
To be fair, Chris Pugh (who runs Outpost) has been against FK ever since Bayona ignored him when Pugh tried to brown nose Bayona into getting special treatment like Pugh got from Trevorrow during the production of JW.

@Lost wrote:
Also, I'm getting tired of friendly pet raptors and t-rexes who love to save humans. Time to bring back the danger in these two star species from JP (I'm couting on you, JW3).
You watched the movie, yes? Blue was 90% feral, and even then they explained her docility in the training videos where they say she's a second gen IBRIS Raptor, which experience increased levels of empathy and curiosity and less aggression and ferocity.

@Bionic wrote:
Well the runtime is another problem. This film clearly needed at least 30 extra minutes.
The island part would have benefitted with increased screen time. I love Bayona's visual take on the island and thought it felt very "TLW" and even very much like the novel. I have a fetish for "dark dino jungles" and that's exactly what Bayona delivered. I'm disappointed he won't be back for the final film because I'd love to see more of what he can do visually with Jurassic Park.

@Bionic wrote:
And like said in some earlier posts the humor really bothered me most of the time since it killed the suspense in some scenes and tonally it just doesn't match with the more horror like parts of the film. The extreme tonal clashes were quite an issue for me.
The moments of levity were welcomed by me. I found the film extremely intense, and those moments of levity helped me breath and remember it's all just a movie.

_______________
SOMETHING HAS SURVIVED
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://abekowalski.deviantart.com/
Spiegel
Ankylosaurus
Ankylosaurus
avatar

Posts : 444
Points : 2976
Reputation : 25
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : Waverly, NY

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:21 pm

Except Blue wasnt presented to us in the light really, she was very hit or miss on how connected she was with her handler, Owen. Despite the fact that Trevvorrow directed that film and wrote the script for this one, its really inconsistent and I find old video of her training didnt explain her actions in JW. Its very contradictory. Just a line or two of dialogue maybe explaining she was a hormonal teenager would have helped the idea.

_______________
Jurassic Role Play: Live The Legend Redux
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://s15.zetaboards.com/JurassicRolePlay/index/
CT-1138
Jurassic Mainframe News Team
Jurassic Mainframe News Team
avatar

Posts : 894
Points : 3673
Reputation : 60
Join date : 2012-04-06
Location : Chicago

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:49 pm

It's not contradictory at all. Theres a lot of animals, even domesticated ones, that can go completely feral after a few years in the wild. I thought that Blue acted much more appropriately for a raptor in this one. She didn't act like some pet. She was wild.

_______________
SOMETHING HAS SURVIVED
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://abekowalski.deviantart.com/
MasterDino
Embryo
Embryo
avatar

Posts : 2
Points : 174
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2018-06-24

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:17 pm

I think in the future, the film could be more appreciated. Don't get me wrong, like BvS, what I meaning is like Speed Racer received negative backlash in 2008 and now is considered a gem. Maybe is the initial reception. Also the scene when Maisie releases the dinosaurs saying "I have to do it. They're alive. Like me" it's very under-appreciated and the final scene with the pterosaurs flying with Owen and Claire looking at them like "What we've done".
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Spiegel
Ankylosaurus
Ankylosaurus
avatar

Posts : 444
Points : 2976
Reputation : 25
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : Waverly, NY

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:24 pm

She was more feral in JW when she nearly attacked Owen, turned her back on Owen, attacked Barry, and didnt change her mind until the very last bit of the movie when she allowed the camera to be removed. She then sees Owen in JWFK with no Socialization with either him or her own kind but seems far more receptive of him. That's a big contradiction.

_______________
Jurassic Role Play: Live The Legend Redux
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://s15.zetaboards.com/JurassicRolePlay/index/
Troyal1
Veteran
Veteran
avatar

Posts : 1663
Points : 2669
Reputation : 62
Join date : 2016-06-08

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:05 pm

@Spiegel wrote:
Like Tyrant Lizard said, its subjective.

If you wanted a bit more expansion on the JP lore, you're not really going to get it.

Ehhh that’s middle of the road for me. We definitely got some new things like cloning of humans.

I think FK will live or die by how good JW3 is. If JW3 is just another movie with animals running around the mainland for 2 hours and they get sent to some island I’ll be pissed. I really hope Colin is serious when he calls it a science thriller.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Spiegel
Ankylosaurus
Ankylosaurus
avatar

Posts : 444
Points : 2976
Reputation : 25
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : Waverly, NY

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:41 pm

@Troyal1 wrote:
@Spiegel wrote:
Like Tyrant Lizard said, its subjective.

If you wanted a bit more expansion on the JP lore, you're not really going to get it.

Ehhh that’s middle of the road for me. We definitely got some new things like cloning of humans.

I think FK will live or die by how good JW3 is. If JW3 is just another movie with animals running around the mainland for 2 hours and they get sent to some island I’ll be pissed. I really hope Colin is serious when he calls it a science thriller.

See my point about some of my disdain over this movie, despite liking it, was just that the expansion of the lore/universe/canon was half hearted or nonexistent. "Oh shes a clone" and "oh she now relates to the dinosaurs and frees them." That was basically all we got other than Lockwood and Hammond broke away from each other over human cloning.This is a huge deal that could mean so many things in the JP/JW universe but we dont get much out of it. Sure, it lays some ground work but its not a steady foundation. Its sort of the same for the other plot lines like Wu escaping with genetic material, eggs, and the Baryonyx. Also, the freed dinosaurs and purchased dinosaurs. Just a huge bunch of cliff hangers that occurred in the last 20-ish (or less) minutes of the movie. That's really it. I mean, yeah they are all potentially huge issues and plots, in fact maybe enough for 4 more movies or even just two containing the conclusion of two of these points each. However, we are getting one more movie in 3 years. Until then, we walk away with the fact that Nublar is destroyed and a massive setup for the next movie.

Its not that I dont like all these setups and ideas. Its just they held them until the end of the movie, threw them all at you at once and walked away with no conclusion and not any clear details to really even look back onto and explore. Thats what gets me. Awesome scenes, great cinematography, awesome director, good actors, but a plot that doesnt do much to push anything forward aside from just some minor mentions of things for a set up of the next, and final film.

Honestly, I feel a good question to ask yourself is what can Park Pedia add from this film. Basic synopsis of things but not the amount detail collected from the other films combined, though TJ may work some magic with his expansive knowledge. Its like the movie didnt expand on the past, simply destroyed it and set up the future, but not very well in my opinion.

Which also concerns me, are they going to throw in details and conclusions to all these issues in a two hour film and just leave things unexplained by showing said conclusions but not giving us details? Is it going to be a swiss chesse film, full of plot holes and questions on how or why certain things occur. I'm not saying it will be, just that I dont have a lot faith but I am keeping an open mind.

_______________
Jurassic Role Play: Live The Legend Redux
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://s15.zetaboards.com/JurassicRolePlay/index/
Troyal1
Veteran
Veteran
avatar

Posts : 1663
Points : 2669
Reputation : 62
Join date : 2016-06-08

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:26 am

@Spiegel wrote:
@Troyal1 wrote:
@Spiegel wrote:
Like Tyrant Lizard said, its subjective.

If you wanted a bit more expansion on the JP lore, you're not really going to get it.

Ehhh that’s middle of the road for me. We definitely got some new things like cloning of humans.

I think FK will live or die by how good JW3 is. If JW3 is just another movie with animals running around the mainland for 2 hours and they get sent to some island I’ll be pissed. I really hope Colin is serious when he calls it a science thriller.

See my point about some of my disdain over this movie, despite liking it, was just that the expansion of the lore/universe/canon was half hearted or nonexistent. "Oh shes a clone" and "oh she now relates to the dinosaurs and frees them." That was basically all we got other than Lockwood and Hammond broke away from each other over human cloning.This is a huge deal that could mean so many things in the JP/JW universe but we dont get much out of it. Sure, it lays some ground work but its not a steady foundation. Its sort of the same for the other plot lines like Wu escaping with genetic material, eggs, and the Baryonyx. Also, the freed dinosaurs and purchased dinosaurs. Just a huge bunch of cliff hangers that occurred in the last 20-ish (or less) minutes of the movie. That's really it. I mean, yeah they are all potentially huge issues and plots, in fact maybe enough for 4 more movies or even just two containing the  conclusion of two of these points each. However, we are getting one more movie in 3 years. Until then, we walk away with the fact that Nublar is destroyed and a massive setup for the next movie.

Its not that I dont like all these setups and ideas. Its just they held them until the end of the movie, threw them all at you at once and walked away with no conclusion and not any clear details to really even look back onto and explore. Thats what gets me. Awesome scenes, great cinematography, awesome director, good actors, but a plot that doesnt do much to push anything forward aside from just some minor mentions of things for a set up of the next, and final film.

Honestly, I feel a good question to ask yourself is what can Park Pedia add from this film. Basic synopsis of things but not the amount detail collected from the other films combined, though TJ may work some magic with his expansive knowledge. Its like the movie didnt expand on the past, simply destroyed it and set up the future, but not very well in my opinion.

Which also concerns me, are they going to throw in details and conclusions to all these issues in a two hour film and just leave things unexplained by showing said conclusions but not giving us details? Is it going to be a swiss chesse film, full of plot holes and questions on how or why certain things occur. I'm not saying it will be, just that I dont have a lot faith but I am keeping an open mind.

I mean I pretty much agree with everything you said. Sadly I think a lot of what your asking could turn into more online content via marketing sites.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Spiegel
Ankylosaurus
Ankylosaurus
avatar

Posts : 444
Points : 2976
Reputation : 25
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : Waverly, NY

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:47 am

I do appreciate that they do that kind of thing, build something for the hardcore fans but its just not the same as seeing it directly in the film. It doesnt feel as real or set in stone because the ability to retcon things so easily. You cant delete a line from a film but you can recreate and entire website from the ground up.

_______________
Jurassic Role Play: Live The Legend Redux
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://s15.zetaboards.com/JurassicRolePlay/index/
#TRexSpinorematch
Pachycephalosaurus
Pachycephalosaurus
avatar

Posts : 313
Points : 901
Reputation : 8
Join date : 2017-05-28

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:21 am

Also, I think some hardcore fans underestimate how aware the general public is about plot holes. In the case of JWFK, I could argue that it seems like it is the general public/casual fans the ones who seem even more bothered by the plot holes/things that don't make sense rather than the very hardcore fans.

We are not talking some minor mistake in the background. We are talking about an island wich was chosen twice to build not one but 2 huge dinosaur parks even though they had to know it had an active volcano.

And most casual fans / general public are also asking themselves about why they did not take the dinosaurs to the other island ?

So the whole "The general public does not remember that there were 2 different islands" is only a myth.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
owenpratt
Brachiosaurus
Brachiosaurus
avatar

Posts : 801
Points : 1837
Reputation : 38
Join date : 2016-06-08
Location : Italy

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:07 am

@Spiegel wrote:


1. Owen saying "No I dont want to go to a place we can so easily die" and Claire saying "You're a good man" is hardly any kind of deep development. Claire so an Apatosaurus die and we are supposed to except that it changed her that much? We dont really get a very detailed look at the thoughts that led her here. A few lines of dialogue could have completely changed that. Maise being told she is a clone is the most weak reason in the world for her to release the dinosaurs. It felt as if that was merely introduced to give her a reason to set the dinosaurs free. How does a 10 year old process that in minutes, while being chased by a monster, and decide that she has so much in common with the dinosaurs she should set them free? Imagine if she had just been told she was adopted and now multiple that by 100 or take the other side and realize she has no idea what it even means. "They're alive like me" is such a weak line, but its be expected from such a weak plot device.

2. That's not what Im referring but just proves how silly that the guy who made the first film wrote the second and couldnt keep his crap together. I was referring to how Blue and Owen have a very slight relationship in JW. She contributes to attacking him after the young guy falls in the paddock. She also turns her back on them after the Indominus "communicates" with the Raptors. She also comes pretty close to attacking him after the flee the innovation center. Now, however, we see old film logs of their bond and are expected to believe that 3 years of being feral and completely un-socialized with even her own species, she's got a bond with him that is inseparable as time itself. Its more of a relationship than Claire and Owen have.

3. Volcano and the auction weren't really plot points but rather vessels to get us to the plot points. The final ideas of the movies, that we are left with are: Dinosaurs are free in the United States, Dinosaurs have been sold to shady characters, people can be cloned, and Wu made off with the ability to continue his work. Those are the important take away points aside from Nublar is destroyed. Not one of them is resolved or really expanded on in any detail. Its like 4 huge cliff hangers. Meanwhile, every other JP/JW film has had a resolution whether it be leaving the island, shipping the Rex back to Sorna, escaping the island, or escaping the island (In order) These points take us to 4. (The only exception is the JP/// Pterosaurs)

4. There is no real resolution or even hint to it, just wide open so that the fan base can go crazy with stupid ideas for 3 years. I'm not a fan of that at all. There is a guy arguing on YouTube with me right now about how great dinosaurs would be for the military for example. We've got people talking about dinosaurs breeding on the mainland but we aren't even sure if they are male or female or just a single sex. I've made jokes about the clone wars and dino-riders because we are left so far hanging on what any of this truly means we can expect the fan base to become a mess of bickering head canons.

5. Yes, it does have some deep ethical issues but they arent really explored that much. Look at how much we saw in both JP and JW about the issues they had, especially from Malcolm but others as well. Here we just get a few minutes of Claire trying to raise money and 45 seconds of Malcom talking about his side at the beginning and end of the film. It wasn't enough to make me pick a side or even question it.

6. Jurassic Park gave us insight into TRex ocular function, ruthlessness and intelligence of raptors, and Gallimimus "flocking".
TLW gave us the Parental instincts of the Trex.
JP/// gave us a  Spinosaurus that was insanely aggressive, Raptor parental instincts, and Pterandon hunting as well as some insight into their parental instincts and nature.
JW gave us a further exploration of Raptor intelligence, some insight into Mosaurus hunting, and Ankylosaur defending itself. Heck, in the Gyrosphere seen you can watch two Parasaurs start to push and shove eachother around. We also got insight in how hybrids act due to the mix of genes.
JWFK We got no real expansion on any of that. Just brief glimpses really or nothing really special. Yes it was great seeing them all but I want to know so much more but will I ever? At the way this is going, no.

7. Owen and his super hero skills that literally have people asking on different sites if he is a Navy Seal. Blue and her ability to use a round house tail whip to knock a guy over. Their inability to be hurt and their heroic feats are one the most focused on parts of the film.

8. Two or three lines about Sorna, for example, would not kill it. Instead I have to go to a website and read about it. Sure, as a rather invested fan I will be the general audience shouldn't have to. Its not like most people forgot about 2 films. I found the script lacking, I dont remember memorable conversations or points that truly made me think. Also, going into the past and pointing out what the previous film did wrong doesn't make it ok that this one did the same. If you're not learning from your mistakes in film making than what are you doing? Just making money . . .

9. Its a cool series of events that if stretched out a little more could fill an entire movie. These crazy scenes, while fun, do not replace dialogue and plot.  I want a conversation over Chilean sea bass, arguments about mistakes of the past coming back to bite you, characters pointing out InGen's secrets like cloning Spinosaurs, or even discussion about probably socializing animals. Just anything more than we have here.


1) The development is not really just that, like I said in my previous post. It's not just just "That place is dangerous" and "You're a good man", I explained it already. Then of course if you expect super deep Oscar-worthy character development, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed by every possible JP sequel. It's not like even JP had deep philosophical characters arcs, for that matter. It's not what makes us love JP (At least in my case).
Claire crying when an Apatosaurus dies is a strong enough image to tell you she's changed and she actually cares about these animals... you don't have to explain everything in words. Cinema was born as the art of showing, more than telling. They tried in FK when Zia and Franklin say lines like "I'm a doctor", "You connect cables, right?" and it felt like on-the-nose explanation. Claire is clearly want to redeem herself (Lockwood talking to her about redemption for example. I loved how they both feel like connected on that: "Isn't it, Claire?", like they both know what they're looking for: redemption). Subtlety is sometimes better than explanation, although I can understand this might not be liked by everyone.
Well, Maisie basically lived with the co-creator of the dinosaurs, in a manor with dinosaurs skeletons and with a scientific lab under her feet. She probably is a bit smarter and aware of the existence of genetic power than an ordinary kid. Besides, she seems to really love the dinosaurs. She probably couldn't stand the vision of them dying also.

2) When Blue first sees Owen in FK, she seems pretty aggressive. She doesn't accept food and she seems pretty angry at him. When she's sedated and injured, Owen comforts her the whole time (like baby Blue comforted him when he faked to be hurt in the footage. Not a coincidence those scenes were edited in the same montage), and Blue is intelligent enough to remember that. In the end she still seems a big aggressive at first (I guess it's also her nature) and then she let herself be touched by Owen, who cares about her and helped her through the surgery. She goes away because she doesn't want to return to the cage.
Also, I still think Blue never changed side in JW. She just turned towards Owen (in the Indominus being part raptor reveal scene) in order to take any order from Owen. Then Hoskins ordered to open fire, so the Raptors and Blue started killing everyone. That's why Blue, when at the Innovation Center sees Owen again, doesn't attack and just waits for orders. Delta herself, when Hoskins gets killed, arrives and puts herself ahead of the Owen group, almost like if she wants to protect him.

3) I really don't get it. I mean, then Jurassic Park, or Jurassic World for that matter, was just a long premise to the fact dinosaurs get free on Nublar? I mean, the volcano eruption was just a vessel to get us to the plot point of dinosaurs getting on the mainland? Then the T-Rex breaking out due to Nedry messing with the park is just a vessel to the point of dinosaurs breaking free on Nublar?
The auction is just a vessel to the plot point of dinosaurs being sold to the buyers around the world, just like San Diego incident is a vessel to the plot point of people getting to know dinosaurs have been brought back to life?
Also, does this mean sequels cannot set up plot points for a future installments? And it's not like we didn't see a volcano erupting, an auction being made, a dinosaurs "prison" break out creating chaos between humans, and human clones dealing with important choices derivating on their own being clones. Or a hybrid dinosaur chasing the main characters.
Sorry if you don't feel them as actual plot points. I feel like they are to me.

4) That's also part of the fun lol in 14 years we made a lot of crazy theories. Also, looks like JW3 will be the movie Colin Trevorrow always wanted to make, where everything will be answered and it will the main actual vision of him coming true. I mean, it's a trilogy: I don't expect Frodo to get rid of the Ring in the second movie.

5) JP has many dialogues about ethics and technology, and how it might be a risky thing, etc... JW shows us (and Malcolm clearly says that) that genetic power has been ALREADY unleashed. Not it's the time to SHOW rather than tell what it's all about. That's what I think. Of course I enjoy any time characters talks genetics etc (and scenes like this are in FK), but I don't expect another JP dinner scene honestly.

6) We see a deep insight on Blue's emphaty. We see the Stygimoloch head-butting things. We saw a half-sedated T-Rex waking up in a cage (what a horrible way to wake up, in a cage after 3 years of freedom) and se wee her for the first time scared of something (the eruption), we see the Indoraptor being attracted by the laser, setting traps faking to be asleep and using his claw to find preys, we got to see a Carnotaurus fighting a Sinoceratops, we got to see a Brachiosaurus begging help from that dock and then dying, we got to see a poor Stegosaurus (beautiful animatronic) being badly treated by Wheatley, we saw Mosasaurus interacting with humans on the beach, we got to see a baby Triceratops looking for the comfort of her mother, we saw a T-Rex meeting a lion for the first time.
Sure, then the trailer spoiled half of these scenes, so maybe the surprise was a bit taken away.

7)  Can't deny that. Although I think Blue's tail must be pretty strong.

8 ) I agree that just a pair of very little lines more about Sorna or so would have helped. But I really didn't find the script lacking. There are many lines and dialogues that stayed with me after I saw the movie. But I think here it's a matter of personal tastes.

9) Mmm, I think we got ethical stuff dialogues in FK, also lines about trying to fix the past, taking responsibilities, etc, although sometimes very subtle. Although as I said before, I wouldn't expect another lunch JP scene in these sequels.

_______________
Jurassic World exists to remind us how very small we are, how new. You can't put a price on that Velociraptor

My Twitter: https://twitter.com/owenpratt93
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Amadieus
Hatchling
Hatchling


Posts : 68
Points : 452
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2017-11-26
Location : Europe

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:37 am

People are talking about plot holes but I cannot even think about one from JWFK
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Bionic
Hatchling
Hatchling
avatar

Posts : 66
Points : 250
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2018-06-12

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:02 pm

Quote :
People are talking about plot holes but I cannot even think about one from JWFK

You gotta be kidding
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Amadieus
Hatchling
Hatchling


Posts : 68
Points : 452
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2017-11-26
Location : Europe

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:07 pm

@Bionic wrote:
Quote :
People are talking about plot holes but I cannot even think about one from JWFK

You gotta be kidding

Surprise me, smartass
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Bionic
Hatchling
Hatchling
avatar

Posts : 66
Points : 250
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2018-06-12

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:45 pm

Quote :
People are talking about plot holes but I cannot even think about one from JWFK

You gotta be kidding

Surprise me, smartass

Mosasaur paddock has a connection to the sea all of a sudden.
Wu had had no backup materiel of the Indominus and thats why they needed a bone to create the Indoraptor?
How long did the mosasaur survive without food in the pool?
The baryonx has lava dropping on its head and just shakes it off like it's nothing.
Why are the carnotaurus and the Trex going after other dinosaurs in the middle of the volcano eruption?
Owen nearly outruns a pyroclastic flow.
Then it catches up to him and doesn't smoke his flesh?
When did they capture the t-rex?
Also none of the dinosaurs are tranqulized, they are snapping left and right.
Nobody notices Claire jumping onto the ship with the truck, not even the guy that just left that truck behind.
It took them days to get from the island to the masnion. From where did they get food considering that nobody was supposed to know that they were on the ship.
Neither Lockwood, nor Iris, nor Maisie noticed what was going on in the basement, that Mills was preparing an auction and all that.
Is Iris, a very old woman, seriously the only person working for Lockwood in this huge building?
The dinosaurs are all auctioned off for a lower price than your average soccer player.
Despite its amplified senses the Indorapor can't smell Owen and the others when they are just two meters away? They didn't make that mistake with the Indominus.
Blue is perfectly fine when she wakes up even though she nearly died because you know, she was shot!
Instead of letting the dinosaurs out Claire could have simply opened the gate to let the gas leak.
Well the animals are all freed after nearly suffocating and the first thing they do is trying to catch some food...

There you go. You may be oblivous to all this but other people actually pay attention when they watch a film.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Spiegel
Ankylosaurus
Ankylosaurus
avatar

Posts : 444
Points : 2976
Reputation : 25
Join date : 2012-03-30
Location : Waverly, NY

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:48 pm

@owenpratt wrote:
@Spiegel wrote:


1. Owen saying "No I dont want to go to a place we can so easily die" and Claire saying "You're a good man" is hardly any kind of deep development. Claire so an Apatosaurus die and we are supposed to except that it changed her that much? We dont really get a very detailed look at the thoughts that led her here. A few lines of dialogue could have completely changed that. Maise being told she is a clone is the most weak reason in the world for her to release the dinosaurs. It felt as if that was merely introduced to give her a reason to set the dinosaurs free. How does a 10 year old process that in minutes, while being chased by a monster, and decide that she has so much in common with the dinosaurs she should set them free? Imagine if she had just been told she was adopted and now multiple that by 100 or take the other side and realize she has no idea what it even means. "They're alive like me" is such a weak line, but its be expected from such a weak plot device.

2. That's not what Im referring but just proves how silly that the guy who made the first film wrote the second and couldnt keep his crap together. I was referring to how Blue and Owen have a very slight relationship in JW. She contributes to attacking him after the young guy falls in the paddock. She also turns her back on them after the Indominus "communicates" with the Raptors. She also comes pretty close to attacking him after the flee the innovation center. Now, however, we see old film logs of their bond and are expected to believe that 3 years of being feral and completely un-socialized with even her own species, she's got a bond with him that is inseparable as time itself. Its more of a relationship than Claire and Owen have.

3. Volcano and the auction weren't really plot points but rather vessels to get us to the plot points. The final ideas of the movies, that we are left with are: Dinosaurs are free in the United States, Dinosaurs have been sold to shady characters, people can be cloned, and Wu made off with the ability to continue his work. Those are the important take away points aside from Nublar is destroyed. Not one of them is resolved or really expanded on in any detail. Its like 4 huge cliff hangers. Meanwhile, every other JP/JW film has had a resolution whether it be leaving the island, shipping the Rex back to Sorna, escaping the island, or escaping the island (In order) These points take us to 4. (The only exception is the JP/// Pterosaurs)

4. There is no real resolution or even hint to it, just wide open so that the fan base can go crazy with stupid ideas for 3 years. I'm not a fan of that at all. There is a guy arguing on YouTube with me right now about how great dinosaurs would be for the military for example. We've got people talking about dinosaurs breeding on the mainland but we aren't even sure if they are male or female or just a single sex. I've made jokes about the clone wars and dino-riders because we are left so far hanging on what any of this truly means we can expect the fan base to become a mess of bickering head canons.

5. Yes, it does have some deep ethical issues but they arent really explored that much. Look at how much we saw in both JP and JW about the issues they had, especially from Malcolm but others as well. Here we just get a few minutes of Claire trying to raise money and 45 seconds of Malcom talking about his side at the beginning and end of the film. It wasn't enough to make me pick a side or even question it.

6. Jurassic Park gave us insight into TRex ocular function, ruthlessness and intelligence of raptors, and Gallimimus "flocking".
TLW gave us the Parental instincts of the Trex.
JP/// gave us a  Spinosaurus that was insanely aggressive, Raptor parental instincts, and Pterandon hunting as well as some insight into their parental instincts and nature.
JW gave us a further exploration of Raptor intelligence, some insight into Mosaurus hunting, and Ankylosaur defending itself. Heck, in the Gyrosphere seen you can watch two Parasaurs start to push and shove eachother around. We also got insight in how hybrids act due to the mix of genes.
JWFK We got no real expansion on any of that. Just brief glimpses really or nothing really special. Yes it was great seeing them all but I want to know so much more but will I ever? At the way this is going, no.

7. Owen and his super hero skills that literally have people asking on different sites if he is a Navy Seal. Blue and her ability to use a round house tail whip to knock a guy over. Their inability to be hurt and their heroic feats are one the most focused on parts of the film.

8. Two or three lines about Sorna, for example, would not kill it. Instead I have to go to a website and read about it. Sure, as a rather invested fan I will be the general audience shouldn't have to. Its not like most people forgot about 2 films. I found the script lacking, I dont remember memorable conversations or points that truly made me think. Also, going into the past and pointing out what the previous film did wrong doesn't make it ok that this one did the same. If you're not learning from your mistakes in film making than what are you doing? Just making money . . .

9. Its a cool series of events that if stretched out a little more could fill an entire movie. These crazy scenes, while fun, do not replace dialogue and plot.  I want a conversation over Chilean sea bass, arguments about mistakes of the past coming back to bite you, characters pointing out InGen's secrets like cloning Spinosaurs, or even discussion about probably socializing animals. Just anything more than we have here.


1) The development is not really just that, like I said in my previous post. It's not just just "That place is dangerous" and "You're a good man", I explained it already. Then of course if you expect super deep Oscar-worthy character development, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed by every possible JP sequel. It's not like even JP had deep philosophical characters arcs, for that matter. It's not what makes us love JP (At least in my case).
Claire crying when an Apatosaurus dies is a strong enough image to tell you she's changed and she actually cares about these animals... you don't have to explain everything in words. Cinema was born as the art of showing, more than telling. They tried in FK when Zia and Franklin say lines like "I'm a doctor", "You connect cables, right?" and it felt like on-the-nose explanation. Claire is clearly want to redeem herself (Lockwood talking to her about redemption for example. I loved how they both feel like connected on that: "Isn't it, Claire?", like they both know what they're looking for: redemption). Subtlety is sometimes better than explanation, although I can understand this might not be liked by everyone.
Well, Maisie basically lived with the co-creator of the dinosaurs, in a manor with dinosaurs skeletons and with a scientific lab under her feet. She probably is a bit smarter and aware of the existence of genetic power than an ordinary kid. Besides, she seems to really love the dinosaurs. She probably couldn't stand the vision of them dying also.

2) When Blue first sees Owen in FK, she seems pretty aggressive. She doesn't accept food and she seems pretty angry at him. When she's sedated and injured, Owen comforts her the whole time (like baby Blue comforted him when he faked to be hurt in the footage. Not a coincidence those scenes were edited in the same montage), and Blue is intelligent enough to remember that. In the end she still seems a big aggressive at first (I guess it's also her nature) and then she let herself be touched by Owen, who cares about her and helped her through the surgery. She goes away because she doesn't want to return to the cage.
Also, I still think Blue never changed side in JW. She just turned towards Owen (in the Indominus being part raptor reveal scene) in order to take any order from Owen. Then Hoskins ordered to open fire, so the Raptors and Blue started killing everyone. That's why Blue, when at the Innovation Center sees Owen again, doesn't attack and just waits for orders. Delta herself, when Hoskins gets killed, arrives and puts herself ahead of the Owen group, almost like if she wants to protect him.

3) I really don't get it. I mean, then Jurassic Park, or Jurassic World for that matter, was just a long premise to the fact dinosaurs get free on Nublar? I mean, the volcano eruption was just a vessel to get us to the plot point of dinosaurs getting on the mainland? Then the T-Rex breaking out due to Nedry messing with the park is just a vessel to the point of dinosaurs breaking free on Nublar?
The auction is just a vessel to the plot point of dinosaurs being sold to the buyers around the world, just like San Diego incident is a vessel to the plot point of people getting to know dinosaurs have been brought back to life?
Also, does this mean sequels cannot set up plot points for a future installments? And it's not like we didn't see a volcano erupting, an auction being made, a dinosaurs "prison" break out creating chaos between humans, and human clones dealing with important choices derivating on their own being clones. Or a hybrid dinosaur chasing the main characters.
Sorry if you don't feel them as actual plot points. I feel like they are to me.

4) That's also part of the fun lol in 14 years we made a lot of crazy theories. Also, looks like JW3 will be the movie Colin Trevorrow always wanted to make, where everything will be answered and it will the main actual vision of him coming true. I mean, it's a trilogy: I don't expect Frodo to get rid of the Ring in the second movie.

5) JP has many dialogues about ethics and technology, and how it might be a risky thing, etc... JW shows us (and Malcolm clearly says that) that genetic power has been ALREADY unleashed. Not it's the time to SHOW rather than tell what it's all about. That's what I think. Of course I enjoy any time characters talks genetics etc (and scenes like this are in FK), but I don't expect another JP dinner scene honestly.

6) We see a deep insight on Blue's emphaty. We see the Stygimoloch head-butting things. We saw a half-sedated T-Rex waking up in a cage (what a horrible way to wake up, in a cage after 3 years of freedom) and se wee her for the first time scared of something (the eruption), we see the Indoraptor being attracted by the laser, setting traps faking to be asleep and using his claw to find preys, we got to see a Carnotaurus fighting a Sinoceratops, we got to see a Brachiosaurus begging help from that dock and then dying, we got to see a poor Stegosaurus (beautiful animatronic) being badly treated by Wheatley, we saw Mosasaurus interacting with humans on the beach, we got to see a baby Triceratops looking for the comfort of her mother, we saw a T-Rex meeting a lion for the first time.
Sure, then the trailer spoiled half of these scenes, so maybe the surprise was a bit taken away.

7)  Can't deny that. Although I think Blue's tail must be pretty strong.

8 ) I agree that just a pair of very little lines more about Sorna or so would have helped. But I really didn't find the script lacking. There are many lines and dialogues that stayed with me after I saw the movie. But I think here it's a matter of personal tastes.

9) Mmm, I think we got ethical stuff dialogues in FK, also lines about trying to fix the past, taking responsibilities, etc, although sometimes very subtle. Although as I said before, I wouldn't expect another lunch JP scene in these sequels.

1. See, all those things could just have a little more meaning with a few extra lines of meaningful and well developed dialogue. We are just presented very simply dialogue or scenes and expected to except the changes that have come. No, I dont expect Oscar worthy conversation or dialogue but something more than just really basic lines that somehow completely change things. This may have been enough for you but its not for me, I want to feel invested or involved in these characters and I dont.

2. In any of the past films, an aggressive raptor basically just went after whatever it saw. Despite the lack of socialization, she seems incredibly open to Owen. Also, during Jurassic World Owen states a line, "Watch your six, raptors got a new Alpha." (1:26) Also if you re-watch the scene you'll see the way the Indominus and the Raptors turn to look at Owen and the Humans, the body language doesn't imply "should we attack." (0:49)



(0:30 and 0:40 Seconds) Doesnt seem to be the same dinosaur as that in JWFK (0:50) Blue seems to be preparing to pounce. (1:19) She isnt holding back from attacking Owen at all.


Also, I hardly believe an animal that is darted and shot while trying to bond with someone is going to not be phased or traumatized.


3. I just dont see it that way. I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying. My point is that the major themes or plot points or whatever you want to call them are all unresolved issues in the end, and not just 1 but 4 separate points. Nedry tried to steal the embryos which caused the issues in Jurassic Park, it wasnt the other way around. The Volcano just feels like a reason to get dinosaurs off the island and not visit it again. The auction is just a reason to sell the dinosaurs. I would have rather seen those points in the beginning and deal with them as the actual plots of the movie. It just feels like everything is a set up to get us where they want to be in JW3. Like its not really its own film but simply a filler. Its not enough for me, you can enjoy it but I dont.

4. Crazy theories that turn into bizarre head canons and toxicity that ruined JPL, especially when said head canons and crazy speculation have 3 years to cement themselves into peoples heads. It also has the potential to ruin the movie when it comes out and doesnt align with those ideas. I'm not a fan of that, you may be but I'm not.

5. That statement, the one about its time to show us the power of genetics unleashed, says to me you want more of an action movie and less dialogue. Also, wasn't showing us that potential done in JW with the Indominus and then further just setup by this movie. In fact, this film seems to be a set up to show that point. So isnt it redundant to show us yet another hybrid to push that point but leave the setup for it yet again in JW3.

6. Those were all just action scenes really and we didnt even see what the meant. Rexy roars at a lion and it roars back. What did we get from that, Trex roars? Picked up on that over the course of 4 films. We didnt see behaviors or anything really interesting outside of a cool scene. Yes, cool scenes or very meaningful, but not an exploration of the creatures themselves at all. Plus anything to do with Indoraptor doesnt matter, its dead and hybrids arent supposed to be coming back.

7. They're just making the characters more heroic, like super heroes, instead of heroic like Grant protecting the kids or Malcom getting the TRex back to the boat. Its more like fight scenes and less like out witting your foe. Glad we can sot of agree on this.

8. I find the script lacking because a few lines added here and there could really make an impact on me. Just think, I used the bar scene as an example of a lack of character development. Just a few more lines, decent lines, could change that whole thing for me. That is all I want, a few more meaningful lines to make me feel more connected or involved in the film. Its just like the lack of Sorna content, just a few good lines in other places could have made me so much for satisfied, which is why I said its lacking.

9. I dont want subtle or the opposite, I just want meaning in the dialogue that is clear and explains things better or make me feel like care about the characters or their plights. I dont care or really understand Claires issues with the dinosaurs being left to die, how does saving them atone for the amount of death the Indominus inflicted? I mean honestly, and despite how much better of a sell the far reaching implications of these dinosaurs and genetics research are, I'm supposed to believe she's changed her tone and also that her best possible answer to feel better is to save them.



Here's the thing, its a good movie but I dont believe its a good entry to the franchise in character development, plot devices, expansion of the lore, or whatever else. Its good though, I like it. I'll buy it when it comes out and I'll watch again, but I just dont like it that much. I'll post these comments because I hope that somehow, someway its seen somewhere and someone will just avoid this mistakes last time. I'm a fan boy as well, just a different version of one than you. I'm glad you like it, but honestly none of these replies or debates have changed my mind at all. In fact, the reviews and discussions have pushed me further away from really loving the move and just kind of things its "Meh, ok". I hope you continue to enjoy it, I'm not trying to change your mind really, I just hate the idea of people selling it off as the perfect movie and Trevvorrow goes and makes the final installment just like it.

_______________
Jurassic Role Play: Live The Legend Redux
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://s15.zetaboards.com/JurassicRolePlay/index/
Amadieus
Hatchling
Hatchling


Posts : 68
Points : 452
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2017-11-26
Location : Europe

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:09 pm

@Bionic wrote:
Quote :
People are talking about plot holes but I cannot even think about one from JWFK

You gotta be kidding

Surprise me, smartass

Mosasaur paddock has a connection to the sea all of a sudden.
Wu had had no backup materiel of the Indominus and thats why they needed a bone to create the Indoraptor?
How long did the mosasaur survive without food in the pool?
The baryonx has lava dropping on its head and just shakes it off like it's nothing.
Why are the carnotaurus and the Trex going after other dinosaurs in the middle of the volcano eruption?
Owen nearly outruns a pyroclastic flow.
Then it catches up to him and doesn't smoke his flesh?
When did they capture the t-rex?
Also none of the dinosaurs are tranqulized, they are snapping left and right.
Nobody notices Claire jumping onto the ship with the truck, not even the guy that just left that truck behind.
It took them days to get from the island to the masnion. From where did they get food considering that nobody was supposed to know that they were on the ship.
Neither Lockwood, nor Iris, nor Maisie noticed what was going on in the basement, that Mills was preparing an auction and all that.
Is Iris, a very old woman, seriously the only person working for Lockwood in this huge building?
The dinosaurs are all auctioned off for a lower price than your average soccer player.
Despite its amplified senses the Indorapor can't smell Owen and the others when they are just two meters away? They didn't make that mistake with the Indominus.
Blue is perfectly fine when she wakes up even though she nearly died because you know, she was shot!
Instead of letting the dinosaurs out Claire could have simply opened the gate to let the gas leak.
Well the animals are all freed after nearly suffocating and the first thing they do is trying to catch some food...

There you go. You may be oblivous to all this but other people actually pay attention when they watch a film.

Tons of those are not even plot holes but more like fake'ish stuff for the sake of being a movie. Others you mentioned are more like goofs than plot holes. I am talking aboutstuff such as the TLW unmanned boat or the sudden cliff in the T-rex paddock. I mean you list things that with a little bit of imagination (that you clearly do not have) could be explained. I never was arguing that the movie would have zero plot holes though, but in my opinion only a few of the ones you mentioned are actual plot holes instead of goofs.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Bionic
Hatchling
Hatchling
avatar

Posts : 66
Points : 250
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2018-06-12

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:22 pm

Quote :

Tons of those are not even plot holes but more like fake'ish stuff for the sake of being a movie. Others you mentioned are more like goofs than plot holes. I am talking aboutstuff such as the TLW unmanned boat or the sudden cliff in the T-rex paddock. I mean you list things that with a little bit of imagination (that you clearly do not have) could be explained. I never was arguing that the movie would have zero plot holes though, but in my opinion only a few of the ones you mentioned are actual plot holes instead of goofs.

Spear me your nonsense, I can suspend my disbelief but lazy scriptwriters can't take me for a fool and expect me to turn my brain off because ...oh well dinosaurs.
And that you are even trying to distinguish between supposed plotholes and 'just' goofs is only silly.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Amadieus
Hatchling
Hatchling


Posts : 68
Points : 452
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2017-11-26
Location : Europe

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:35 pm

@Bionic wrote:
Quote :

Tons of those are not even plot holes but more like fake'ish stuff for the sake of being a movie. Others you mentioned are more like goofs than plot holes. I am talking aboutstuff such as the TLW unmanned boat or the sudden cliff in the T-rex paddock. I mean you list things that with a little bit of imagination (that you clearly do not have) could be explained. I never was arguing that the movie would have zero plot holes though, but in my opinion only a few of the ones you mentioned are actual plot holes instead of goofs.

Spear me your nonsense, I can suspend my disbelief but lazy scriptwriters can't take me for a fool and expect me to turn my brain off because ...oh well dinosaurs.
And that you are even trying to distinguish between supposed plotholes and 'just' goofs is only silly.

Right, because captured dino's not being sedated is a plot hole.... (Goof, plus it adds more dramatic effect to the movie than sleeping dino's)

Or the so called plothole that Iris is the only worker in a huge mansion.... Perhaps other people work there and go home? Maybe Mills made sure that the part-time staff were not working on those days? (Using your imagination)

I can do this with almost all the things you mentioned.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Bionic
Hatchling
Hatchling
avatar

Posts : 66
Points : 250
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2018-06-12

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:44 pm

Quote :
Right, because captured dino's not being sedated is a plot hole.... (Goof, plus it adds more dramatic effect to the movie than sleeping dino's)

Or the so called plothole that Iris is the only worker in a huge mansion.... Perhaps other people work there and go home? Maybe Mills made sure that the part-time staff were not working on those days? (Using your imagination)

I can do this with almost all the things you mentioned.

No you can't but you can try.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
owenpratt
Brachiosaurus
Brachiosaurus
avatar

Posts : 801
Points : 1837
Reputation : 38
Join date : 2016-06-08
Location : Italy

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:15 pm

@Spiegel wrote:


1. See, all those things could just have a little more meaning with a few extra lines of meaningful and well developed dialogue. We are just presented very simply dialogue or scenes and expected to except the changes that have come. No, I dont expect Oscar worthy conversation or dialogue but something more than just really basic lines that somehow completely change things. This may have been enough for you but its not for me, I want to feel invested or involved in these characters and I dont.

2. In any of the past films, an aggressive raptor basically just went after whatever it saw. Despite the lack of socialization, she seems incredibly open to Owen. Also, during Jurassic World Owen states a line, "Watch your six, raptors got a new Alpha." (1:26) Also if you re-watch the scene you'll see the way the Indominus and the Raptors turn to look at Owen and the Humans, the body language doesn't imply "should we attack." (0:49)



(0:30 and 0:40 Seconds) Doesnt seem to be the same dinosaur as that in JWFK (0:50) Blue seems to be preparing to pounce. (1:19) She isnt holding back from attacking Owen at all.


Also, I hardly believe an animal that is darted and shot while trying to bond with someone is going to not be phased or traumatized.


3. I just dont see it that way. I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying. My point is that the major themes or plot points or whatever you want to call them are all unresolved issues in the end, and not just 1 but 4 separate points. Nedry tried to steal the embryos which caused the issues in Jurassic Park, it wasnt the other way around.  The Volcano just feels like a reason to get dinosaurs off the island and not visit it again. The auction is just a reason to sell the dinosaurs. I would have rather seen those points in the beginning and deal with them as the actual plots of the movie. It just feels like everything is a set up to get us where they want to be in JW3. Like its not really its own film but simply a filler. Its not enough for me, you can enjoy it but I dont.

4. Crazy theories that turn into bizarre head canons and toxicity that ruined JPL, especially when said head canons and crazy speculation have 3 years to cement themselves into peoples heads. It also has the potential to ruin the movie when it comes out and doesnt align with those ideas. I'm not a fan of that, you may be but I'm not.

5. That statement, the one about its time to show us the power of genetics unleashed, says to me you want more of an action movie and less dialogue. Also, wasn't showing us that potential done in JW with the Indominus and then further just setup by this movie. In fact, this film seems to be a set up to show that point. So isnt it redundant to show us yet another hybrid to push that point but leave the setup for it yet again in JW3.

6. Those were all just action scenes really and we didnt even see what the meant. Rexy roars at a lion and it roars back. What did we get from that, Trex roars? Picked up on that over the course of 4 films. We didnt see behaviors or anything really interesting outside of a cool scene. Yes, cool scenes or very meaningful, but not an exploration of the creatures themselves at all. Plus anything to do with Indoraptor doesnt matter, its dead and hybrids arent supposed to be coming back.

7. They're just making the characters more heroic, like super heroes, instead of heroic like Grant protecting the kids or Malcom getting the TRex back to the boat. Its more like fight scenes and less like out witting your foe. Glad we can sot of agree on this.

8. I find the script lacking because a few lines added here and there could really make an impact on me. Just think, I used the bar scene as an example of a lack of character development. Just a few more lines, decent lines, could change that whole thing for me. That is all I want, a few more meaningful lines to make me feel more connected or involved in the film. Its just like the lack of Sorna content, just a few good lines in other places could have made me so much for satisfied, which is why I said its lacking.

9. I dont want subtle or the opposite, I just want meaning in the dialogue that is clear and explains things better or make me feel like care about the characters or their plights. I dont care or really understand Claires issues with the dinosaurs being left to die, how does saving them atone for the amount of death the Indominus inflicted? I mean honestly, and despite how much better of a sell the far reaching implications of these dinosaurs and genetics research are, I'm supposed to believe she's changed her tone and also that her best possible answer to feel better is to save them.



Here's the thing, its a good movie but I dont believe its a good entry to the franchise in character development, plot devices, expansion of the lore, or whatever else. Its good though, I like it. I'll buy it when it comes out and I'll watch again, but I just dont like it that much. I'll post these comments because I hope that somehow, someway its seen somewhere and someone will just avoid this mistakes last time. I'm a fan boy as well, just a different version of one than you. I'm glad you like it, but honestly none of these replies or debates have changed my mind at all. In fact, the reviews and discussions have pushed me further away from really loving the move and just kind of things its "Meh, ok". I hope you continue to enjoy it, I'm not trying to change your mind really, I just hate the idea of people selling it off as the perfect movie and Trevvorrow goes and makes the final installment just like it.

I'll answer your last paragraph first: I'm the opposite as you, since I loved the movie and really wish Colin etc will understand that FK is a kind of movie I loved and basically what I wanted to see for years, from a Jurassic Park movie.
On the other hand, I think your intent of making them understand their mistakes in order to improve next time is a very good thing, and I appreciate that.
I just think some of your complaints sound nitpicky to me and really come from things I didn't dislike, and sometimes I actually even loved.
But sure, this is not a perfect movie (not even JP was, for that matter), and I'm not blind to its eventual problems: the superhero Owen thing (although I liked him as a character in general in FK, more than in JW), some unexplained parts (which us, huge fan, can understand, but maybe not the general audience), or some plot holes (the lagoon thing, but I really don't care much since the sequence itself is amazing, or a few of the points Bionic listed a few posts before).

Anyway...

1) I think the subtlety worked, at least to me. I was watching the movie the first time and getting hints of things just by the various expressions or shots or just little words said by characters, without needing further explanations. Sure, a few words more about Sorna or why they would need the Indominus bone if they had the embryos (I personally have an answer to that, but I would have liked it to be at least hinted in the movie) would have been cool.

2) Mine is just a theory, first of all. Second, the Raptors got a new Alpha except for Blue, IMO. As we see in the footage from FK, only Blue seems to really have empathy towards Owen. In the video you posted, look at Blue: she's just waiting for an order, unlike the other Raptors who are in a attack position. In the Raptor paddock scene, I think Blue just was confused by the improvised Owen arrive, basically taking their food (the guy) away from them. Blue stops trying to attack Barry when he says "Blue!" and she recognize him.

During the surgery, Blue was conscious by the way. She even dropped a tear (moment that felt a bit weird, but I liked it for what it tried to say about empathy).

Oh, but if you say all these things should have been explained more properly, I agree with you.

3) Here I think we just have to agree to disagree. I really cannot feel the film like you do, so... that's it, I guess.

4) I like making theories about future films, although of course one should not hype himself/herself up for things and then being disappointed if they are not in the movie. That's up to each person's maturity, I think.

5) Wait, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying I want only action scenes or so. I want also calmer scenes, I love them, but I just think sometimes the power of images is stronger than long dialogues, especially in a "visual" films like Jurassic. The shot of an amber cane falling to the ground and breaking in thousand pieces is an example. A look a character gives can be more powerful than that same character saying something. A scene with a character crying over a dead dinosaur can be more effective than that same character saying "I think I was wrong, dinosaurs are beautiful and I should not look at them like assets".
Then of course, I would love another lunch discussion kind of scene, but I don't know if it would fit with this new trilogy.

6) Well, I think the baby Raptor footage about her empathy is already a great example, and one of the highest points reached by the franchise in terms of "Scenes about interesting dinosaurs behavior". I was in awe for the whole scene.

7) I think Claire is more like Grant at least. Owen is the superhero one (Although, as I said before, I liked him much more in FK than in JW, on a human level).

8 ) I agree about the Sorna stuff, or to add a very few lines here and there, but really nothing that hurts my vision of the film. So here we 50% agree, I think lol

9) Hammond was looking for redemption in a similar way, by saving the dinosaurs from human greed. Human greed caused the death of people in Jurassic World. Claire wants to redeem herself by saving the dinosaurs and bring them to the sanctuary when they can live free and without human interference. (Then of course, in order to do that she kinda interferes with them, but anyway Hammond did that because he knew Ludlow would use them for profit, and Claire knew they would all die from the volcano).

_______________
Jurassic World exists to remind us how very small we are, how new. You can't put a price on that Velociraptor

My Twitter: https://twitter.com/owenpratt93
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Lost
Ceratosaurus
Ceratosaurus
avatar

Posts : 183
Points : 1136
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2016-06-11

PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:43 pm

@Bionic wrote:
When did they capture the t-rex?

You'd think this would've been one of the most interesting scenes to see, but they just skip it like it's a minor detail. "Oh btw, we captured the t-rex too, here it is in captivity".
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   

Back to top Go down
 
Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is
Back to top 
Page 2 of 10Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Fallen Skies
» Mai-Multiverse Chapter III: Rise of the Fallen [Mai-HiME/Otome O.C. Roleplay]
» Silver Millennium Forum: Earth Kingdom Adventure!
» Creator Backlash Against the New DC?
» Lest not forget ... Fallen WW1 Maltese soldiers

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Jurassic Mainframe :: The Franchise :: Film Universe :: Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom Talk-
Jump to: