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Sickle_Claw
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PostSubject: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeThu Nov 07, 2019 8:02 pm

Not trying to start an argument but just gonna leave this here based on all the "commotion" regarding canon im seeing lately:

There’s a reason “soft canon” exists and why people put things like the comics and the LEGO stuff in their own universes bc it just doesn’t fit the established rules/ timeline of the world. For example Jurassic Park the game can be soft canon because it doesn’t directly contradict the events of the movie. Things like Mt. Sibo were introduced and the game even makes an attempt to clarify the Gerry/Sarah relationship.

TOPPS/IDW can NOT be fit into a film timeline for example because they do logic breaking stuff like introducing aliens and Green Lantern or whatever shit into the franchise. As well as things that make no logical sense in any reality like Gorillas roaming around the South American Jungle, and muldoon magically coming back to life.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeThu Nov 07, 2019 9:02 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeThu Nov 07, 2019 9:39 pm

Admittedly my issues with the constant use of saying everything is "soft canon" will make it super problematic in the long run to actually know the ultimate definitive answer to things. Unfortunately the subject of canon is an overly divisive issue for many. Take Disney's move to boot the original SW EU and replace it with the sequel trilogy. People were invested and with Jurassic Park we have similar investments in the continuity where people want to claim and hold ownership over it when it otherwise isn't able to be owned other than by the studios and the creative rights holders.

I could cite an example with the Jurassic Park/World fandom and I would say take Trespasser for instance. It has a very devout and loyal fan base to it, but the fact it runs in so much conflict with the films sets it apart from them. Take the map of Sorna in it for example, it's modeled off of a real-world location known as Isla Del Cocos. Further, Trespasser does mix together elements of the films and novels to world build too. I loved Trespasser myself, it offers a closer look to things despite the inconsistencies.

I could say an opposite example of the above was the outrage happened over Jurassic Park: The Game being canonical. People didn't want it to be canon even though Universal pushed Telltale to make a game that expanded upon what we saw. It upset fan theories and head canons that had existed previously for decades regarding the Barbasol can and numerous other little things from the first film. More recently even the viral media portions constructed for the Jurassic World movies has fallen in a similar predicament.

So on one hand it's great they (the powers that be) are trying to include everybody and be diverse when it comes to the canon the series ultimately suffers due to the lack of a definitive and precise answer.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeThu Nov 07, 2019 11:49 pm

I look at this much in the same way I do with Star Wars. There is just not one single "correct" or "hard" canon. There are many valid canons to pick and choose from for lack of a better term.

There is the George Lucas canon (The first six films), there is the early Marvel comics canon, there is the Expanded Universe canon (From the Dark Empire comics on), there are videogames like Rebel Assault for PS1 and Force Unleashed for PS2 canon, and then there is the Disney canon and so on… Some of the early material might contradict the more recent stuff so it is hard to just sit down and say this and this should be hard canon and this and that is not.

Right now many Star Wars fans (myself included) are aware that Disney has broken so much of the established rules of the universe that they see the Disney Movies as more or less fan fiction or just a hypothetical alternate universe because it was not made by the creator himself. Can you blame them?


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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeFri Nov 08, 2019 7:54 am

The solidness of canon has always been a weak point of this franchise since JW came out.

My biggest problem is how they are using websites to expand the franchise/lore so heavily when no other major sci-fi franchise does so. Why should we settle for sites to expand the lore-which most of the GA has little interest in seeing anyway-when we should be demanding that it be done the proper way via TV shows and stuff like that?

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSat Nov 09, 2019 5:36 pm

If you ask me, Terry gives a very good summary of the problems with saying things are not canon just because they conflict with your own headcanon. And Rhedo honestly also does, in a roundabout way Razz  There is a reason you cant say that comic canon for example is equal to film canon, theres just too many inconsistencies and if you try to wrap your head all around it it will explode.

Honestly, I will say this about the sites, the guys doing the site's are really hardcore fans. The way they did the site's shows to me that they have an appreciation for trying to work within the film timeline without making a huge sloppy mess of it. I would say here that the sites work in a way that it doesn't have to need or beg for the GA's approval. This isnt like the Disney + thing where they force you to watch all the marvel tv shows on that site to understand future movies.

You can understand the movies without reading the websites. Does that make them any less canon? I would say, look at them, do they fit within a logical constraint film wise in terms of timeline? I would say they do. The main issues people seem to have with the sites are that it crushes the headcanons of people in that Sorna is no longer a player, that much, and that the Spino is dead/a hybrid.

I mean to be honest, it is 'safe' to do something like that, in that the story has moved past Sorna now. A site writer can do whatever the fuck they want with it without it disrupting main story. Same for Masrani site,it's timeline for how Jurassic World began does not conflict with anything we know, and actually lends a deeper dimension to JP3. Do the GA need to look at it to understand JP3? No, I'll be honest. But should it be ignored just because the GA doesnt give a fuck about it? No. I dont see why we should ignore, it as we are NOT the GA.

Btw guess what? The GA doesnt give a FUCK about Sorna.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSat Nov 09, 2019 11:44 pm

@Sickle_Claw wrote:
Btw guess what? The GA doesnt give a FUCK about Sorna.


One of the main criticisms the general audience had about JWFK was that they could have taken the dinosaurs to Sorna instead of the mainland. Plenty of casual moviegoers were like "Wait...What happened to that other island!?"

Sorna is not that insignificant to the general public.



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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2019 1:00 am

I think most of the criticism hurled at Fallen Kingdom was more due to general tone, writing, and characters than anything. Had the movie been better, but the fate of Sorna remained the same, I doubt anybody outside of our little niche group would have cared all that much.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2019 6:45 pm

#TRexSpinorematch wrote:
@Sickle_Claw wrote:
Btw guess what? The GA doesnt give a FUCK about Sorna.


One of the main criticisms the general audience had about JWFK was that they could have taken the dinosaurs to Sorna instead of the mainland. Plenty of casual moviegoers were like "Wait...What happened to that other island!?"

Sorna is not that insignificant to the general public.



Alright, you really want to get into Sorna then? So here goes. The writers of the movie clearly had an arc planned with the movies, the full results of which we will not see until JW3. The main focus of JW3 seems to have be Mainland for now, as seen and evidenced in the short Battle at Big Rock. I believe that regarding Canonicity, the events of Sorna are going nowhere, they still happened, they do influence the way people behave and react to the dinosaurs. Would Jurassic World have been as popular if the San Diego incident had never happened? Probably not.

But again...so not to get off track here... lets talk about what you suggested for a second. Realistically even if they had said Sorna was the destination, the dinosaurs would've probably always gone to a place on the mainland. That auction was seemingly designed early on in production enough for toys to be made from it. (The lego set) And to be honest, the screenwriters would have had to think of story possibilities too. Sorry, but Sorna is a dead end, story-wise at this point, they would be much better off going other avenues before they retread that ground.

I think even for the GA, probably they know it exists, but at this point, it wasn't a factor, even in universe wise, as we see Mills literally talk right past it... if Sorna was a factor would sanctuary island have been needed? Or for that matter was it really even real

But yes. These Sorna stories still impact the plot, are still canonical. Colin Trevorrow did not break into anyone's houses and trash your copies of TLW and JP3.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2019 7:04 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
I think most of the criticism hurled at Fallen Kingdom was more due to general tone, writing, and characters than anything. Had the movie been better, but the fate of Sorna remained the same, I doubt anybody outside of our little niche group would have cared all that much.

Most fans didn't take too kindly to the fate of Sorna, but what really hurt FK more than anything is the writing. Canon may not matter all that much to the ultra normie GA, but lapses in logic will stick out like a sore thumb.
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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2019 7:52 pm

@Megaspino2 wrote:
Most fans didn't take too kindly to the fate of Sorna, but what really hurt FK more than anything is the writing. Canon may not matter all that much to the ultra normie GA, but lapses in logic will stick out like a sore thumb.

I really don't take issue with the writers making leaps with the canon. I think a good general rule of thumb would be "if you're going to make significant alterations to the canon, you'd better make it worthwhile". I imagine even the most hardcore of fans would have been more okay with Sorna's fate had had the final product been better.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2019 8:44 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
@Megaspino2 wrote:
Most fans didn't take too kindly to the fate of Sorna, but what really hurt FK more than anything is the writing. Canon may not matter all that much to the ultra normie GA, but lapses in logic will stick out like a sore thumb.

I really don't take issue with the writers making leaps with the canon. I think a good general rule of thumb would be "if you're going to make significant alterations to the canon, you'd better make it worthwhile". I imagine even the most hardcore of fans would have been more okay with Sorna's fate had had the final product been better.

This. After the writing on display and wasted potential of FK(in my opinion of course) Sorna is the least of my worries.

I’d honestly take a masterpiece trilogy if it meant TLW and JP3 never happened, and I love both of those.

However Sorna is still canon. I don’t think it’s out of the question for us to see a side movie or even a tv show set there sometime down the road. If it’s true that Universal has no real intention of letting this end for good after JW3
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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2019 10:42 pm

I'm the type of person that cares a lot about the "canon" of things, depending on how much I care about the series in question. I want to know what I'm investing my time and often money in. If something doesn't truly matter or is irrelevant in the bigger picture, I'm honestly less likely to gravitate toward it because I'll be focusing on what does count. I don't want to sit through several episodes of an animated show on Netflix (for example) and then be told, "Oh, that thing? Completely irrelevant to the movies it's based on so you don't need to worry about it." I mean, sure, it may not take away the enjoyment I got out of it, but I would have preferred to use that time watching a show that has an effect on the subject it's based on, if that makes sense. Things like the MCU, I don't care whether the Netflix shows are canon or not, but I care greatly if material for the Jurassic franchise is canon or not because that's where my interest and focus lies.

When it comes to this franchise, I think the canon should be treated with more care and strictness. This recent uptick in the use of "soft canon" to describe new material, I'm not a fan of. It's selling fans on, "Oh, this awesome new adventure really happens in between these two movies and you should totally see it because it's extra official content!" and then when fans show up, it's like, "Actually, this may have happened but it probably didn't so enjoy but don't count on any of this being mentioned ever again." I probably described that poorly, but it almost feels like a marketing gimmick. In general, if attention to detail and consistency is being paid due mind, things shouldn't be canon one week and non-canon the next. The recent Live Tour was supposed to be canon to the films, had consultation from Trevorrow and Marshall, all this work was put into making it fit, and now it's pretty much non-canon, and for what? What changed? It's one thing if there's a gaping contradiction and something has to be sacrificed and relegated to being non-canon, but as far as I've heard, the Live Tour doesn't suffer from this. Even Jurassic Park: The Game doesn't massively contradict the films apart from maybe the Visitor Center door (someone can correct me on this). Errors alone shouldn't necessarily dictate canon status in my opinion. The Evolution of Claire has a few errors—Karen's husband's name comes to mind—despite Trevorrow and BDH being consultants, but it's still (currently) considered film canon according to the former.

Canon status shouldn't be as wishy-washy as it's looking to be. I would hate for Trevorrow to come along a month prior to Jurassic World 3 and declare the DPG and Masrani websites to be non-canon, despite establishing them as film canon and praising the team as "canon consultants." All that lore we gained, right down the drain. Something should either be canon or non-canon, and there should be someone paying attention to this kind of thing to set the record straight. It would suck for it to get to the point where fans don't trust anything Universal officials have to say about canon and the door is open to a mess of contradicting material. Imagine someone seriously saying the Topps/IDW comics, The Game, and only Jurassic Park 3 was canon, and you couldn't say no because what are you going to do? Use unreliable Universal statements? Pfft.

Jeez, I'm rambling, but mainly I don't want this to turn into a crapshoot.
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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 8:58 am

@Sickle_Claw wrote:
If you ask me, Terry gives a very good summary of the problems with saying things are not canon just because they conflict with your own headcanon. And Rhedo honestly also does, in a roundabout way Razz  

You can understand the movies without reading the websites. Does that make them any less canon? I would say, look at them, do they fit within a logical constraint film wise in terms of timeline? I would say they do. The main issues people seem to have with the sites are that it crushes the headcanons of people in that Sorna is no longer a player, that much, and that the Spino is dead/a hybrid.

I mean to be honest, it is 'safe' to do something like that, in that the story has moved past Sorna now. A site writer can do whatever the fuck they want with it without it disrupting main story. Same for Masrani site,it's timeline for how Jurassic World began does not conflict with anything we know, and actually lends a deeper dimension to JP3. Do the GA need to look at it to understand JP3? No, I'll be honest. But should it be ignored just because the GA doesnt give a fuck about it? No. I dont see why we should ignore, it as we are NOT the GA.

But again...If all the other major franchises don't accept sites a canon sources, then why should we? The only one I can think of is Star Trek via Trek '09, when they had a site to talk about the villain of the movie, Nero. When the movie came out, so little was talked about him in the movie that it didn't quite fit in with the GA or the fans.

Godzilla, the MCU in the Infinity Gauntlet/Thanos era (2008-2019), and Star Wars when Lucas owned the franchise didn't relay on sites so I really don't think it's unfair to say that we shouldn't either.


@Sickle_Claw wrote:
#TRexSpinorematch wrote:
@Sickle_Claw wrote:
Btw guess what? The GA doesnt give a FUCK about Sorna.


One of the main criticisms the general audience had about JWFK was that they could have taken the dinosaurs to Sorna instead of the mainland. Plenty of casual moviegoers were like "Wait...What happened to that other island!?"

Sorna is not that insignificant to the general public.



Alright, you really want to get into Sorna then? So here goes. The writers of the movie clearly had an arc planned with the movies, the full results of which we will not see until JW3. The main focus of JW3 seems to have be Mainland for now, as seen and evidenced in the short Battle at Big Rock. I believe that regarding Canonicity, the events of Sorna are going nowhere, they still happened, they do influence the way people behave and react to the dinosaurs. Would Jurassic World have been as popular if the San Diego incident had never happened? Probably not.

But again...so not to get off track here... lets talk about what you suggested for a second. Realistically even if they had said Sorna was the destination, the dinosaurs would've probably always gone to a place on the mainland. That auction was seemingly designed early on in production enough for toys to be made from it. (The lego set) And to be honest, the screenwriters would have had to think of story possibilities too. Sorry, but Sorna is a dead end, story-wise at this point, they would be much better off going other avenues before they retread that ground.

I think even for the GA, probably they know it exists, but at this point, it wasn't a factor, even in universe wise, as we see Mills literally talk right past it... if Sorna was a factor would sanctuary island have been needed? Or for that matter was it really even real

But yes. These Sorna stories still impact the plot, are still canonical. Colin Trevorrow did not break into anyone's houses and trash your copies of TLW and JP3.

But Colin wiped out the Sorna population so in that sense, he might as well have. Maybe it's just me, but I regard that the same way how the new Terminator movie basically slapped the long time fans of the franchise in the face with what happened in the first 3 minutes.

@Megaspino2 wrote:
@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
I think most of the criticism hurled at Fallen Kingdom was more due to general tone, writing, and characters than anything. Had the movie been better, but the fate of Sorna remained the same, I doubt anybody outside of our little niche group would have cared all that much.

Most fans didn't take too kindly to the fate of Sorna, but what really hurt FK more than anything is the writing. Canon may not matter all that much to the ultra normie GA, but lapses in logic will stick out like a sore thumb.

Not only that, but you know who else cares about canon? Movie buffs, and they have grown in number a lot since the 1990's. That and people are getting smarter about movies nowadays.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 10:25 am

@Megatronus Rex wrote:
I'm the type of person that cares a lot about the "canon" of things, depending on how much I care about the series in question. I want to know what I'm investing my time and often money in. If something doesn't truly matter or is irrelevant in the bigger picture, I'm honestly less likely to gravitate toward it because I'll be focusing on what does count. I don't want to sit through several episodes of an animated show on Netflix (for example) and then be told, "Oh, that thing? Completely irrelevant to the movies it's based on so you don't need to worry about it." I mean, sure, it may not take away the enjoyment I got out of it, but I would have preferred to use that time watching a show that has an effect on the subject it's based on, if that makes sense. Things like the MCU, I don't care whether the Netflix shows are canon or not, but I care greatly if material for the Jurassic franchise is canon or not because that's where my interest and focus lies.

When it comes to this franchise, I think the canon should be treated with more care and strictness. This recent uptick in the use of "soft canon" to describe new material, I'm not a fan of. It's selling fans on, "Oh, this awesome new adventure really happens in between these two movies and you should totally see it because it's extra official content!" and then when fans show up, it's like, "Actually, this may have happened but it probably didn't so enjoy but don't count on any of this being mentioned ever again." I probably described that poorly, but it almost feels like a marketing gimmick. In general, if attention to detail and consistency is being paid due mind, things shouldn't be canon one week and non-canon the next. The recent Live Tour was supposed to be canon to the films, had consultation from Trevorrow and Marshall, all this work was put into making it fit, and now it's pretty much non-canon, and for what? What changed? It's one thing if there's a gaping contradiction and something has to be sacrificed and relegated to being non-canon, but as far as I've heard, the Live Tour doesn't suffer from this. Even Jurassic Park: The Game doesn't massively contradict the films apart from maybe the Visitor Center door (someone can correct me on this). Errors alone shouldn't necessarily dictate canon status in my opinion. The Evolution of Claire has a few errors—Karen's husband's name comes to mind—despite Trevorrow and BDH being consultants, but it's still (currently) considered film canon according to the former.

Canon status shouldn't be as wishy-washy as it's looking to be. I would hate for Trevorrow to come along a month prior to Jurassic World 3 and declare the DPG and Masrani websites to be non-canon, despite establishing them as film canon and praising the team as "canon consultants." All that lore we gained, right down the drain. Something should either be canon or non-canon, and there should be someone paying attention to this kind of thing to set the record straight. It would suck for it to get to the point where fans don't trust anything Universal officials have to say about canon and the door is open to a mess of contradicting material. Imagine someone seriously saying the Topps/IDW comics, The Game, and only Jurassic Park 3 was canon, and you couldn't say no because what are you going to do? Use unreliable Universal statements? Pfft.


There's a reason for 'soft canon', and primary reason is to avoid stepping on story writers for the new film. Lets see, almost everything Jurassic Wise has to get a clear from Universal, and there's a reason why they do this. Its to avoid stepping on the toes of future film writers. If all of these are "hard canon" then I guess the writers of JW3 would go "sorry we can't use that idea, it's been taken" *shrug* Or the film writers don't want to be obligated to be beholden to something like "oh there was a secret ingen site c in chile" I still haven't seen the live show, but im guessing right now that the events of the tour pretty much make that null and void, as to not be a factor in future movies. Even if it is 'hard canon' its not something that is going to deeply affect the narrative.

Extra content is just that. Extra. Content. Let's say you're enjoying JPTG, some of it contradicts, but some of it can mesh in, but there's more of an effort to make it mesh then there is in contradict. It sounds to me like you want some kind of official statement to be made on the record telling what's 'hard' canon and what's not...

Now Rhedo I didn't forget you. Razz What I want to point out right now since you really really want to talk about sites being Canon. I will correct you on one point here, Godzilla KOTM and Kong: Skull Island had a companion site, MONARCH, which provided supplemental information on the additional Kaiju as well as the Monarch bases. Now it is not essential to viewing the movie, but in a sense it can help understand the different kaiju better. Godzilla (american series) also has 'soft canon' with the comics for KOTM and Skull Island being considered to be following the movies timeline. (I went to a panel with the makers of the comics and they confirmed that Toho/Legendary said it was)

As for Sorna, it was made clear, repeatedly in the DPG website that dinosaurs from Sorna were used to populate Jurassic World. This is not as drastic as shooting john Connor in the face in the first five seconds, and I think you know that as well. John Connor has repeatedly been the hope of the future, humanity's salvation...but even in Terminator Dark Fate (and to some extent Genisys) there have been attempts to move past him. And honestly I think Jurassic World showed as well that the films have moved past Sorna too.

And oh really? Film goers getting smarter? The same who keep asking about Scorceses opinion on the MCU every five seconds?

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 2:13 pm

@Sickle_Claw wrote:
As for Sorna, it was made clear, repeatedly in the DPG website that dinosaurs from Sorna were used to populate Jurassic World. This is not as drastic as shooting john Connor in the face in the first five seconds, and I think you know that as well. John Connor has repeatedly been the hope of the future, humanity's salvation...but even in Terminator Dark Fate (and to some extent Genisys) there have been attempts to move past him. And honestly I think Jurassic World showed as well that the films have moved past Sorna too.

And oh really? Film goers getting smarter? The same who keep asking about Scorceses opinion on the MCU every five seconds?

They just won't accept thrash getting thrown at them forever. Just ask look at how Paramount is doing so poorly by thinking they can get away with throwing whatever they think they can.

As for Sorna, I guess that it was that it wrapped everything up so well that it made many of the movies pointless. Not only that, but you also have the question, which nobody has given me a believable answer to, is to how man and dinosaur are supposed to live together, which is what this new movie is setting up, when man has wiped out more animal species then it can count. Even without the military/National Guard, you don't think every mountain man, hillbilly, and redneck would wipe out most of the dinosaurs by themselves?

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 2:37 pm

@Rhedosaurus wrote:
But again...If all the other major franchises don't accept sites a canon sources, then why should we? The only one I can think of is Star Trek via Trek '09, when they had a site to talk about the villain of the movie, Nero. When the movie came out, so little was talked about him in the movie that it didn't quite fit in with the GA or the fans.


LOLwut? Star Wars has literally published ancillary/semi-canon materials via comics, novels, TV shows, video games, etc for DECADES. Even now, Lucasfilm considers anything published by them after 2012 to be hard canon, including podcasts. You honestly think other franchises don't do this? Don't be naive.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 2:55 pm

@CT-1138 wrote:
@Rhedosaurus wrote:
But again...If all the other major franchises don't accept sites a canon sources, then why should we? The only one I can think of is Star Trek via Trek '09, when they had a site to talk about the villain of the movie, Nero. When the movie came out, so little was talked about him in the movie that it didn't quite fit in with the GA or the fans.


LOLwut? Star Wars has literally published ancillary/semi-canon materials via comics, novels, TV shows, video games, etc for DECADES. Even now, Lucasfilm considers anything published by them after 2012 to be hard canon, including podcasts. You honestly think other franchises don't do this? Don't be naive.

You proved my point. Comics, novels, TV shows, and to a limited degree video games. The first 3 are what I want. Solid canon, not this fluid canon al la the site that can be changed at will. Even Godzilla and Trek has had more of that. We haven't got much of that at all, even in the apex of it's point during the 90's, we barely got any of that.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 3:22 pm

I kinda gave up on the whole canon thing, when I heard that the JW Live show would be "canon". My first reaction was: "What about all the fans in other countries, that won't get the chance to see it?" and how do you want to incorporate it with the other films? Watch JP-JW, go see JWLive and then FK?
So, I would say somewhere: "oh yeah after the events of JW, Blue is the last Raptor" And person B says: "Nope, there were some in Chile." And I'm just like: "Wat?!"

And I kinda see, where this is starting to go. Sure, a marketing strategy of saying: This is canon, go see it! Now, they want to say it's "soft" canon, so that the people, if they like it, can put it in their own head canon. And Jurassic isn't that much of an IP to create stories like the SW or MCU. The thing with those marketing websites: They are fun and dandy, but people kinda forget about them. Remember when the TLW website stated that Malcolm was part time teaching at the Berkley area and the whole cover up stuff and many more? TBH: I don't follow those sites anymore, because there's always a chance that this might get retconned in the next book, film etc. like the TLW marketing website.

Here an example with the Sorna case: The Masrani site stated back then, that InGen Security had problems with poachers on Site B. Okay. Now the DPG says that there were rumors about poaching vessels on Nublar and Sorna. Fine. Now the conclusion came that the ecosystem collapsed, because of the Spino and the other animals shown in JP/// were the reason and the few surviving animals were transported to Nublar. In the Evolution of Claire book, Masrani told Claire that there was no problem with the ecosystem, but more with poachers. The book implies that Masrani had control of the island all along. What is it now? What has more value? The old Dinosaur list, where some animals were written in red is only an indicator, that those animals in red were victims of cruelty. Okay what form? Got poached to extinction? Someone bought a Spino tooth from the black market? I understand that they wanted to do it more "vague", so they can adjust or change the course when the next movie, book etc might contradict it.

I'm doing now my own head canon thingy, because I think that in the long run, this might be the best thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 7:49 pm

First off, I'd like to thank the academy. Then I'd like to thank Rhedo for Hop, skipping, and jumping over the point I was trying to make. Really? Made the movies pointless? How exactly did it do that? I have mentioned before that Soft canon helps illustrate the behind the scenes content that describes how Sorna impacted the World plot. Not everything needs to be spelled out on screen in words a fifth grader can understand. And as to how man and beast interact, I guess there's this short that came out recently, you'd like it. Battle at Big Rock.

Also Nikorex I'd really have to disagree tbh with the idea that headcanon>>> solid/soft canon. That's exactly how we all got ourselves into the pickle that we are in today. Like I said, as JWlive takes place in BETWEEN the movies, I have not watched it, but my assumption is that unlike JP3, this was something that was more likely covered up...because again, SECRET INGEN BASE. Also you guys want content, then you bitch that the content your given restricts the stories too much because everything must be 'hard' canon , or under 'one' canon. Can't have it both ways, guys.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2019 11:01 pm

@Sickle_Claw wrote:
#TRexSpinorematch wrote:
@Sickle_Claw wrote:
Btw guess what? The GA doesnt give a FUCK about Sorna.


One of the main criticisms the general audience had about JWFK was that they could have taken the dinosaurs to Sorna instead of the mainland. Plenty of casual moviegoers were like "Wait...What happened to that other island!?"

Sorna is not that insignificant to the general public.



Alright, you really want to get into Sorna then? So here goes. The writers of the movie clearly had an arc planned with the movies, the full results of which we will not see until JW3. The main focus of JW3 seems to have be Mainland for now, as seen and evidenced in the short Battle at Big Rock. I believe that regarding Canonicity, the events of Sorna are going nowhere, they still happened, they do influence the way people behave and react to the dinosaurs. Would Jurassic World have been as popular if the San Diego incident had never happened? Probably not.

But again...so not to get off track here... lets talk about what you suggested for a second. Realistically even if they had said Sorna was the destination, the dinosaurs would've probably always gone to a place on the mainland. That auction was seemingly designed early on in production enough for toys to be made from it. (The lego set) And to be honest, the screenwriters would have had to think of story possibilities too. Sorry, but Sorna is a dead end, story-wise at this point, they would be much better off going other avenues before they retread that ground.

I think even for the GA, probably they know it exists, but at this point, it wasn't a factor, even in universe wise, as we see Mills literally talk right past it... if Sorna was a factor would sanctuary island have been needed? Or for that matter was it really even real

But yes. These Sorna stories still impact the plot, are still canonical. Colin Trevorrow did not break into anyone's houses and trash your copies of TLW and JP3.

I am aware that they are moving away from Sorna. I was just saying that the General Public is not as indifferent to Sorna as some make it out be. That is the "nobody cares for TLW or JP3" internet myth that I am always fighting against. It is similar to when people say "nobody liked the Star Wars prequels" yet when you actually ask around you see that many people actually remember them fondly.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeTue Nov 12, 2019 7:00 am

@Sickle_Claw wrote:


Also Nikorex I'd really have to disagree tbh with the idea that headcanon>>> solid/soft canon. That's exactly how we all got ourselves into the pickle that we are in today. Like I said, as JWlive takes place in BETWEEN the movies, I have not watched it, but my assumption is that unlike JP3, this was something that was more likely covered up...because again, SECRET INGEN BASE. Also you guys want content, then you bitch that the content your given restricts the stories too much because everything must be 'hard' canon , or under 'one' canon. Can't have it both ways, guys.

To me, that is head canon. Lets say few people are gonna discuss the events and include JWLive, person B engages in the conversation and disagrees with the whole concept of JWLive and now a discussion starts out. So who's right and who's wrong according to you? Person B can't be wrong because Trevorrow said, that's not part of the hard canon. So we're gonna have the "agree to disagree" situation. Basically the same thing with head canons IMHO. The only difference here, that it got a name now from officials. You see how this is gonna become a clusterfuck of canons, because there will be people, who will only accept the main movies as canon, then you'll get the fans who will accept the soft canon that includes JPTG and JWLive and of course there's the head canon fraction, what's really a wide range because people are gonna put the things in, that they think fits in the stories.

I don't speak for the others here in the forums of course. That is just my take and the take of my good friends as well, that we spoke about the whole situation. Maybe I'm just growing out of the whole canon, soft canon thingy. And if people disagree with my take, I have absolutely no problem with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSat Nov 16, 2019 5:59 pm

@Sickle_Claw wrote:
First off, I'd like to thank the academy. Then I'd like to thank Rhedo for Hop, skipping, and jumping over the point I was trying to make. Really? Made the movies pointless? How exactly did it do that? I have mentioned before that Soft canon helps illustrate the behind the scenes content that describes how Sorna impacted the World plot. Not everything needs to be spelled out on screen in words a fifth grader can understand.  And as to how man and beast interact, I guess there's this short that came out recently, you'd like it. Battle at Big Rock.

Ok. I'll challenge your point.

Here's the thing about the Godzillaverse movies, though. The movies have far more solid continuity then the JW movies have with the JP movies. This is because the movies are made and have scripts written in ways that don't necessarily require fans to care about the sites. I like to compare it to how the Marvel TV shows connect with the MCU movies, but the MCU movies really don't care about the shows. Not only that, but even in the 2000's, the Godzilla franchise never had to relay on sites to expand the franchise. I'll go even one step further. Not only does the Heisei series of Godzilla movies have more solid contiunality-even with the 1954 movie added in since it was a different timeline-then the JP movie franchise from JW on, but the Showa series, at least until Destroy All Monsters came along, also had more solid continuity.

With the JW movies, the fact that you have to go to the sites to find out what happened with Sorna, it's dinosaur population, and what happened in between JP3 and JW is nothing short of an indictment of not only poorly thought out writing via the scriptwriters of the movies, but also an indictment of Universal via utter lack of planning via not having a plan-or at least that's what it seems like-in case JW became a hit. Wouldn't you agree that it would have made more sense to talk about what happened to Sorna and the events in between JP3 and JW in the actual JW movies then go to these sites? Wouldn't it make more sense for JW:FK to explain why you can't just repopulate Sorna with the dinosaurs in the movie rather then have Kylton Fyloriti explain it via his YouTube channel? I get that the flimmakers what to get away from the islands, but that's no excuse to give them a pass for not explaining this in the movies and leaning on sites and YouTubers explain it instead.

I honestly don't think that it's too much to ask in this day and age to ask for this franchise to have much more solid contuniality and more solid (books, cartoon shows, etc) sources of canon then what we are currently getting. Quite frankly, it just comes across like this franchise is the odd man out among not just other sci-fi franchises-Godzilla, the MCU, Star Trek, etc, but pop culture franchises in general and that it's trying to play catch up in a poor way rather then do it the way all the others have done.

I guess part of my mindset is because of how Uni basically sat on the money that JW made and did little to expand the brand.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSat Nov 16, 2019 7:40 pm

@Rhedosaurus wrote:

Here's the thing about the Godzillaverse movies, though. The movies have far more solid continuity then the JW movies have with the JP movies. This is because the movies are made and have scripts written in ways that don't necessarily require fans to care about the sites. I like to compare it to how the Marvel TV shows connect with the MCU movies, but the MCU movies really don't care about the shows. Not only that, but even in the 2000's, the Godzilla franchise never had to relay on sites to expand the franchise. I'll go even one step further. Not only does the Heisei series of Godzilla movies have more solid contiunality-even with the 1954 movie added in since it was a different timeline-then the JP movie franchise from JW on, but the Showa series, at least until Destroy All Monsters came along, also had more solid continuity.

To say that the Showa continuity has better continuity than the JP franchise is laughable.

Do not forget, there are more movies in the Showa continuity than just the Godzilla films.

* Godzilla
* Godzilla Raids Again
* Rodan
* Varan
* Frankenstein vs. Baragon
* Mothra
* King Kong vs. Godzilla
* Atragon
* Mothra vs. Godzilla
* Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster
* Invasion of Astro-Monster
* The War of the Gargantuas
* Ebirah, Horror of the Deep
* King Kong Escapes
* Son of Godzilla
* Godzilla vs. Hedorah
* Godzilla vs. Gigan
* Godzilla vs. Megalon
* Zone Fighter
* Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla
* Terror of Mechagodzilla
* Destroy All Monsters

All those standalone films (Mothra, Rodan, Varan, Atragon, etc.) are officially part of the Showa continuity according to Toho. Yet they are never really mentioned in later films. (Except Mothra and Rodan because of the events of Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster), and only serve to introduce kaiju we see later on in Destroy All Monsters.
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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2019 9:20 pm

Well, Rhedo...1morey just completely refuted your entire point that you were making about the Showa Continuity. Still want to make that comparison? To answer petition guy, the general public does remember Sorna, but we moved on... ALL the marketing is now on focused on mainland adventures now.

Nikorex. So you just now admitted that you classify something as headcanon just because its inconvenient to your person feelings about an aspect of the franchise? And yes that is why soft canon exists because obviously the regular fans dont even know that JPTG was even made because TWD was the more popular Telltale franchise with 900 chapters or whatever. But for fans who truly understand this canon, who are mature enough to understand the subtleties, the nuances... yes, I believe soft canon has a place. (Btw good on you for not saying your headcanon should be taken seriously. gold star.)

Rhedo..what do you say about something else that has recently come to light. The new motion comics that fill in the gap between FK and JW3 regarding the mainland dinos? These are being posted publicly on the Jurassic World web page too! And they do make an effort to fit into the timeline!

Also.... I screencapped something fun for ya Razz Fresh from the JW motion comic
Jurassic Park and Canon GGLfZW4

That's canon.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeSat Dec 07, 2019 10:37 pm

Good to see the military will be involved after all. Hopefully it’s dealt with in a believable way.
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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Dec 09, 2019 12:14 pm

@Sickle_Claw wrote:
Rhedo..what do you say about something else that has recently come to light. The new motion comics that fill in the gap between FK and JW3 regarding the mainland dinos? These are being posted publicly on the Jurassic World web page too! And they do make an effort to fit into the timeline!

Also.... I screencapped something fun for ya Razz Fresh from the JW motion comic
Jurassic Park and Canon GGLfZW4

That's canon.

The motion comics aren't bad, but I do wish that they'd be a television show instead. I mean, I don't see a reason why they just don't air them on TV instead. After all, Uni's parent company, Comcast, has enough resources and wherewithal to do so.

I'm still of the mindset that people are more willing to see an animated TV show that's designated as canon on a cabal/satellite then on a website.

@Troyal1 wrote:
Good to see the military will be involved after all. Hopefully it’s dealt with in a believable way.

I still wonder how the next movie will explain how the dinosaurs didn't get wiped out within 2-3 years of them escaping.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeMon Dec 09, 2019 8:35 pm

@Rhedosaurus wrote:
I still wonder how the next movie will explain how the dinosaurs didn't get wiped out within 2-3 years of them escaping.

I'm interested to see how this is explained as well. That said, considering the buck in TLW was wasn't shot dead seconds after walking off the boat in TLW, there is precedence for this type of thing being glossed over.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2019 7:58 am

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
@Rhedosaurus wrote:
I still wonder how the next movie will explain how the dinosaurs didn't get wiped out within 2-3 years of them escaping.

I'm interested to see how this is explained as well. That said, considering the buck in TLW was wasn't shot dead seconds after walking off the boat in TLW, there is precedence for this type of thing being glossed over.

Here's the difference. TLW was able to get away with that because the survivors and victims families were all bribed off to keep quiet while as Malcomb was smeared so that nobody could have believed him. That and having a 41 ft long, 7 ton T. rex rampaging does sound absurd at first.

Now, everybody knows that dinosaurs are alive and on the mainland. Not only that, but people are willing to accept something if it's restrained and if it's a one-time thing, which is what TLW implied that Papa Rex's rampage was.

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PostSubject: Re: Jurassic Park and Canon   Jurassic Park and Canon Icon_minitimeTue Dec 10, 2019 11:11 am

@Rhedosaurus wrote:
Here's the difference. TLW was able to get away with that because the survivors and victims families were all bribed off to keep quiet while as Malcomb was smeared so that nobody could have believed him. That and having a 41 ft long, 7 ton T. rex rampaging does sound absurd at first.

Now, everybody knows that dinosaurs are alive and on the mainland.

Yeah, no. If we're going for realism, that Rex is shot dead almost immediately. If not seconds after walking off the boat or dock, then most certainly here.

Jurassic Park and Canon Tumblr_inline_np7y95f8pV1s6lbk5_500

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