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 Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:05 am

@JVM wrote:
@Mr. Robustus wrote:
To be fair, the "dinosaurs as weapons" subplot is Spielberg's fault, not Trevorrow's. Spielberg for some reason loves the idea and keeps pushing the writers to include that in some way in these new movies. Trevorrow has admitted in an interview he agrees that the idea of weaponized dinosaurs is kind of silly and unrealistic, but he has to include it anyway, because it's Steven Spielberg.

You might recall that a lot of the ideas/scripts for the fourth movie (back when it was stuck in development hell) included weaponized dinosaurs in some capacity, waaay before Trevorrow got involved with the franchise. Spielberg always thought that having dinosaurs in wars would be the next logical step for the franchise.
Thank God someone else has noticed this. I've been really frustrated with Trevorrow being blamed for this, when so much of what's wrong with the current JW films is just an extension of the same bad concepts we saw in the early scripts ten years ago. I credit Trevorrow a lot with making the best of some very difficult concepts. I think a lot of directors would have played Owen and Blue exactly the way our antagonists (like Hoskins and Mills) see them and appreciate that he brought that relationship as down to earth as the concept could be taken.

I'm not crazy about how the dinosaurs as weapons plotline has been used, but I think it has/had potential, but my approach would've been wildly different. It's possible the next film may carry it, but I would have probably focused on a subtler, financial-based approach, sort of like what JW was implying via Hoskins for much of it, and less Wu intentionally tailoring experiments for military purposes and potential buyers.

To be fair, he and Connelley did write the script for this movie. Let's not pretend he doesn't deserve a fair share of the blame.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:14 pm

Not to mention.... It was Jurassic World the one that was hated for the dinos in the military idea, not Fallen Kingdom. Fallen Kingdom is getting hate for other reasons explained in this thread.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:58 pm

@Lost wrote:
If you read user reviews for the movie on imdb, the top voted one is this one I will copy and paste here. This guy really nails it, and it's quite a funny read, too:

...

Still, if all you want is an action/adventure with many different dinos, regardless of lousy storytelling and flat characters, have fun with this one.

This not only isn't funny at all, it's borderline insulting to those of us that actually enjoyed the film.

This smug attitude that you're somehow an idiot or have low standards if you enjoyed FK or thought it had any redeeming quality whatsoever is an absolutely cancerous and potentially damaging mentality. Diversity of opinion is all well and good, but lines like the one quoted really irk me.

Despite what Trevorrow might say, I do believe that things are starting to get a bit toxic within this fandom.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:40 pm

I cannot believe how hate the guys who run Jurassic Outpost are spewing over this film & the franchise's future all over Twitter & what not... Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:11 pm

Diversity of opinion is one thing...I get that this is a polarizing film (I myself was slightly disappointed by it), but it's lines like the one I underlined that really drive me up the wall. It's basically a not so subtle way of saying "You have low standards if you enjoy this film/the World franchise".

Then there are those pretending that the World trilogy is somehow the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise. Maybe I'm just being blinded by the new, shiny toy that is these new films somewhat, but I think that the franchise very nearly dying after 2001 kind of trumps a polarizing film that still managed to make over a billion dollars in the "sky is falling" department.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:21 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
Diversity of opinion is one thing...I get that this is a polarizing film (I myself was slightly disappointed by it), but it's lines like the one I underlined that really drive me up the wall. It's basically a not so subtle way of saying "You have low standards if you enjoy this film/the World franchise".

Then there are those pretending that the World trilogy is somehow the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise. Maybe I'm just being blinded by the new, shiny toy that is these new films somewhat, but I think that the franchise very nearly dying after 2001 kind of trumps a polarizing film that still managed to make over a billion dollars in the "sky is falling" department.
I agree with you completely. I see it as part of a rising problem in "Hollywood" (or mostly entertainment journalism) where the general opinion on a film is quickly treated as a settled, factual matter. We've seen a lot of polarizing franchise sequels in the last few years, and in a lot of cases though, these would be bookended by comments about outdoing a previous, inferior sequel, or living up to a superior earlier film. I'm not crazy about JP3 but I would have hated it every comment on Jurassic World had to be book-ended by "Let's hope it's better than that one!" and I do tire of the comments insisting the new films aren't the original. They can't be. It's very tiring and you see how many people whose opinions on films are essentially restating something they saw in another review.

Not to mention, while there's a consensus that many disliked Fallen Kingdom, there is no consensus on why it failed, and I've seen completely different opinions - such as a review suggesting the film is melodramatic and depressing and too talky, and another suggesting it's too silly and not serious enough. There's articles suggesting the twist was too far, and articles saying the films should go three times as far. People complaining these movies rely too much on nostalgia but then angrily asking why there isn't more Malcolm. This all makes course correction difficult, because clearly different audiences want a different film here.

I don't consider the new Jurassic films representative of the originals, but I'm glad we're still getting something, and I think the first JW has become rather underrated, appreciated for spectacle but almost never for many good touches.

@dance2nite wrote:
I cannot believe how hate the guys who run Jurassic Outpost are spewing over this film & the franchise's future all over Twitter & what not... Rolling Eyes
Yeah, it's surprising me, because JO seemed more excited about the film than anyone before it came out. Chris is actually a pretty cool guy to talk to but there's a certain mood whiplash with his feed for me. I don't even disagree with a lot of his points so much as don't find them as important.
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:19 pm

I had to unfollow Chris Pugh. He's great for info and stuff, but 2/3rds of his tweets these days are him bitching about JW and FK (or retweeting other people bitching about the films).

Regardless of what someone's standing in the community is, it gets tiresome seeing the same thing over and over and over again.

Although at least he's somewhat respectful about it. I'll give him that.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:55 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
I had to unfollow Chris Pugh. He's great for info and stuff, but 2/3rds of his tweets these days are him bitching about JW and FK (or retweeting other people bitching about the films).

Regardless of what someone's standing in the community is, it gets tiresome seeing the same thing over and over and over again.

Although at least he's somewhat respectful about it. I'll give him that.

Yeah I noticed he, most of the time, tweets about how Fallen Kingdom is bad and similar stuff.
It's becoming pretty annoying, but at the same time there's no way you can tell him to stop, since he's been quite "correct" about the whole thing. Never offended anyone for thinking otherwise.

It's like me but on the other side of the spectrum, I tweet a lot about how Fallen Kingdom is great lol

Sure that positiveness always is more welcomed than negativity... everyone, haters aside, would aspire to like this movie. So me keep talking about how great the movie is is, I hope, less annoying than who keep bitching about it.

Although Chris also actually tweeted how great the direction and cinematography is in Fallen Kingdom, but that's one positive tweet out of 100 lol

I'll keep following him, hoping that one day he will start seeing more of the good stuff out of Fallen Kingdom. I mean, for now he reputes it inferior to JP3. That makes me roll my eyes a bit, but it's his opinion, I guess...

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:16 pm

I respect Chris as a person and I actually do agree with some of the points he brings up (especially on the dinosaurs and character writing), but I have to agree that his endless nitpicking on even the smallest details in FK has turned into "beating the dead horse" by this point lol.

I wholeheartedly agree with the points brought up on this thread. Different opinions on a movie are completely fine, but to derail others based on it is immature and comes off as elitistic. The worst example has to be reddit- you can't even say one positive word on JW/FK without an antire horde jumping on you saying things like "lol you have a s**t taste", "Colin ruined JP", "how can a real fan unironically like these movies"- but my absoulute "favorite" has to be "Michael Crichton is rolling in his grave". Way to respect the man, folks..
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:12 pm

@Dv-218 wrote:
I respect Chris as a person and I actually do agree with some of the points he brings up (especially on the dinosaurs and character writing), but I have to agree that his endless nitpicking on even the smallest details in FK has turned into "beating the dead horse" by this point lol.

I wholeheartedly agree with the points brought up on  this thread. Different opinions on a movie are completely fine, but to derail others based on it is immature and comes off as elitistic. The worst example has to be reddit- you can't even say one positive word on JW/FK without an antire horde jumping on you saying things like "lol you have a s**t taste", "Colin ruined JP", "how can a real fan unironically like these movies"- but my absoulute "favorite" has to be "Michael Crichton is rolling in his grave". Way to respect the man, folks..

I actually do agree with a lot of what Chris says as well, but he (and others) just repeats the same thing over and over and over and over again. To me that type of thing kinda breeds toxicity within the community, and it's starting to show.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:46 pm

Sorry to bring up Star Wars yet again, but I am only doing it to show that there are fans like that on every fanbase.

There's this minority that likes The Last Jedi that are convinced that the film is perfect beyond perfection and they insist that anyone and everyone who dislikes the film is "just a toxic fat manchild living in his mother's basement bitter because his fanboy expectations did not happen and thus not able to get why the film is so brilliant that fans should not be allowed to even question it".

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:43 pm

Just like I'm sure there is a sect of people within the Star Wars fandom that not only take every opportunity possible to crap on TLJ, but also use the polarizing reaction to TLJ as a club to beat the people who enjoyed the film over the head with in order to undermine their POV.

Which is what is happening with FK, or at least what I'm starting to see.

But yeah, let's try and keep Star Wars talk in the Star Wars thread xD Star Wars talk always seems to derail the topic Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:54 pm

But my point still stands. There are people like that on every fanbase and on every side of the argument.

But back to JWFK, while I agree that no one should be called stupid for liking a film. At the same time I have to point out that when JWFK gets hate, usually the critic provides well thought arguments. Even if the critic is sometimes a little arrogant, usually they explain the why. They don't just say, "You are wrong! Bye!".

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:00 pm

In my experience, they'll often bring up a reasonable argument, then follow it up with a "but if you like crappy films and blah blah blah, then more power to you" or some smug comment like that.

Or, better yet, when people use the polarizing reaction to the film as a way to discredit those who enjoyed it, which is something I often see as well.

The "I told you so-isms", so to speak. It's not a good look. In fact, it's cancerous imho.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:28 pm

But then again that happens with almost every film that is not considered a masterpiece classic. In fact that happens with almost every topic in general. That's kind of how the internet has been since it became big.


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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:33 pm

It's something that's largely been avoided within our community, which imho has been part of what has kept it largely intact and relatively civil throughout the years. With these new films that seems to have gone down the drain, and the "I told you so-isms" are more rampant than ever before.

Even if it is common within other communities, it's something that should still be avoided, lest our community become as septic as some of the others out there (not naming names, but you know...).

tl;dr version: We should be better than that.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:42 am

The problem with this is the polarization in large franchise films is it pushes people out of fandom. People might phase out of a community if a new film doesn't meet their tastes, and that's a fairly natural part of fandom for better or worse, but that's more about personal interest. The conversations around these more recent films start from worthy places but when they take on divisive and exclusionary tones that seek to separate fans, you start making groups of people feel excluded and left behind, and you destroy the very sense of community that fandom needs to prosper. (I think it also makes some difference that a lot of it spills into entertainment journalism these days, especially in the manyfold Star Wars situations.)

I mean, I'm not even wild about Fallen Kingdom, but I still find it pretty depressing to reduce conversation about the series to complaining about the new films, or even merely assessing their quality. I still think it had some very well-handled scenes and it brought two dinosaurs to the franchise I've wanted to see for a decade.

Quote :
It's something that's largely been avoided within our community, which imho has been part of what has kept it largely intact and relatively civil throughout the years. With these new films that seems to have gone down the drain, and the "I told you so-isms" are more rampant than ever before.
I was honestly really impressed in the later pre-JW years how much we'd moved past the controversy of JP3 - no matter one's opinion on the film as a whole, it seemed like everyone had agreed it had some positive elements and deserved to be taken into consideration in the future. There was obviously some ruckus when it was new, but in the long run, the community took a really smart and mature approach to handling the film.
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:52 am

@Dv-218 wrote:
but my absoulute "favorite" has to be "Michael Crichton is rolling in his grave". Way to respect the man, folks..

Michael Crichton would be proud of the themes brought up by both Jurassic World and Fallen Kingdom. Would he like the movies on other levels? I don't know, but to say these films are nothing like Crichton is just a lie.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:48 pm

I see things slightly different. I hope nobody here takes this the wrong way.

If anything else, I feel like it's some in the GA, movie buffs, and mainly hipsters, who hate the franchise, at least in its current form, the most

I've also noticed something else. A polite, if heated, difference of opinion of how this franchise has been handled since JW, which has heated up here and in the JP facebook group that I'm on. You have many long time fans (myself) included who feel that this franchise really hasn't been handled as good as it should be ever since JP3. And then you have many fans who are just happy to get anything JP . Now, I was like that not long ago, so I do get where those people are coming from. But I slowly noticed that my expectations of JW ushering in a 'new golden age of JP' really wasn't happening. (Cartoon shows, comic books, etc.) and that's where I got to the point where I am. I still find it odd that Godzilla, JP's only rival, is expanding in terms of his brand and inevitably, himself, yet JP is not.

In fact, some of the old timers who went here after JPL left haven't posted about what they thought about the movie and I can't help but wonder if they don't want to cause a civil war here and inadvertently risk bringing back "the bad ol' days" which JPL sadly got a reputation for.

Not only that, but I can't help but wonder if the JW movie series would be as successful if other dinosaur movies, particularly movies made by Willis O'Brien and Ray Harryhausen that were remade by Peter Jackson, were to come out. (I'd love it if he remade the original The Lost World or Gwangi.)

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:54 pm

@Rhedosaurus wrote:
You have many long time fans (myself) included who feel that this franchise really hasn't been handled as good as it should be ever since JP3. And then you have many fans who are just happy to get anything JP .

There is also a third group of fans like me that are genuinely enjoying the direction of this new trilogy, and not just because they are "happy to get anything JP".
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:01 pm

@Dilophosaurus wrote:
There is also a third group of fans like me that are genuinely enjoying the direction of this new trilogy, and not just because they are "happy to get anything JP".

I can imagine how much it must irk those people genuinely happy with the new material to be called wrong, or that they're simply "happy to get anything JP".

That's exactly the type of things that pushes toxicity within a fandom, although that doesn't seem to matter to some.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:06 am

@Dilophosaurus wrote:
@Rhedosaurus wrote:
You have many long time fans (myself) included who feel that this franchise really hasn't been handled as good as it should be ever since JP3. And then you have many fans who are just happy to get anything JP .

There is also a third group of fans like me that are genuinely enjoying the direction of this new trilogy, and not just because they are "happy to get anything JP".

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of things I don't want to read. Like, if you like the JW trilogy is just because you blindly accept anything JP.
That's not the truth at all. Hope Rhedosaurus just accidentally forgot to add that third group in the list, and that he doesn't really think that those who like this new trilogy are just accepting it because it's JP.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:17 pm

My advice for everyone would be not to worry so much about how united the fanbase is. On big franchises like this one there has always been very different (and strong) opinions. It would be unrealistic to just hope that the entire Jurassic fanbase will all of the sudden become one united big happy family, it never has been.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:16 pm

#TRexSpinorematch wrote:
My advice for everyone would be not to worry so much about how united the fanbase is. On big franchises like this one there has always been very different (and strong) opinions. It would be unrealistic to just hope that the entire Jurassic fanbase will all of the sudden become one united big happy family, it never has been.

The different opinions are welcome. Actually, they are essential for a fandom. The bad things come when there's no respect for those opinions, and it's not anymore a civil discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:33 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
@Dilophosaurus wrote:
There is also a third group of fans like me that are genuinely enjoying the direction of this new trilogy, and not just because they are "happy to get anything JP".

I can imagine how much it must irk those people genuinely happy with the new material to be called wrong, or that they're simply "happy to get anything JP".

That's exactly the type of things that pushes toxicity within a fandom, although that doesn't seem to matter to some.


I wouldn't say that as so much as how it's being done and the direction it's going.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:12 pm

@Rhedosaurus wrote:
I wouldn't say that as so much as how it's being done and the direction it's going.

But, as this thread has illustrated, there are those that are happy with the direction the franchise is moving in, and implying they don't don't matter, that they're somehow wrong, or that they have low standards is something that, as we're seeing, makes for a septic environment within the community, far more so than the subjective quality of a film imo. And the thing is that individual attitudes that create toxicity within a community are something that, unlike a film that we have no control over, can be changed .

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:06 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
@Rhedosaurus wrote:
I wouldn't say that as so much as how it's being done and the direction it's going.

But, as this thread has illustrated, there are those that are happy with the direction the franchise is moving in, and implying they don't don't matter, that they're somehow wrong, or that they have low standards is something that, as we're seeing, makes for a septic environment within the community, far more so than the subjective quality of a film imo. And the thing is that individual attitudes that create toxicity within a community are something that, unlike a film that we have no control over, can be changed .

Pretty much all this. I never like when I see reviews that act like those enjoying a film are some sort of idiots. Just because everything isn’t high art doesn’t mean it is for the brainless. Differing opinions are fine, they are great because they belong to everyone. But when it’s asserted an opinion is more valid than mine (keep in mind, I’m not debating facts. So if I think the Earth is flat but facts say it’s round that’s different. I am NOT a flat Earth guy bye.), it becomes a problem.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:12 am

^This. 100% this Smile

While there are definitely some fans who are just happy that there is a new JP movie no matter how good it is, others are actually pleased with the direction the series is going in and are statisfied with the movie itself. There's nothing wrong with properly criticizing a movie and pointing out it's missteps, but saying s**t like "well if you like stupid movies about dinosaurs you might enjoy this", "you can't be a real JP fan if you enjoy this garbage", "you like a movie that s**ts on a masterpiece" or "people like you are the problem", implying that the people who like the movie are morons who have low standarts is not ok in any shape or form.
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:48 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
@Rhedosaurus wrote:
I wouldn't say that as so much as how it's being done and the direction it's going.

But, as this thread has illustrated, there are those that are happy with the direction the franchise is moving in, and implying they don't don't matter, that they're somehow wrong, or that they have low standards is something that, as we're seeing, makes for a septic environment within the community, far more so than the subjective quality of a film imo. And the thing is that individual attitudes that create toxicity within a community are something that, unlike a film that we have no control over, can be changed.


@TheDreamMaster wrote:
Pretty much all this. I never like when I see reviews that act like those enjoying a film are some sort of idiots. Just because everything isn’t high art doesn’t mean it is for the brainless. Differing opinions are fine, they are great because they belong to everyone. But when it’s asserted an opinion is more valid than mine (keep in mind, I’m not debating facts. So if I think the Earth is flat but facts say it’s round that’s different. I am NOT a flat Earth guy bye.), it becomes a problem.


But wouldn't both of you agree that many people who didn't like the movie or the direction have valid arguments that should be listened to? And is it really a bad thing for those people to ask for improved movies?

Also, I disagree that fans have no control over movies. Look at the fan outrage over Zilla '98, X3 and Wolverine: Origins, and GB 2016. Fan outrage forced Sony to cancel a sequel to that movie and forced Toho to make proper Godzilla movies, ret-conned X3 out of existance and got 2 proper Deadpool movies as well as Logan, and showed Sony what happens when you insult customers. So us fans do have power. We just need to use it.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:17 pm

@Rhedosaurus wrote:
But wouldn't both of you agree that many people who didn't like the movie or the direction have valid arguments that should be listened to? And is it really a bad thing for those people to ask for improved movies?

Forgive me if this seems blunt, but you're missing the point. The issue isn't with those saying "I didn't care for FK because of this, this and this". The issue is with the people saying "FK sucked and if you disagree then you're an idiot", like the post I quoted earlier in the thread. There is a difference.

That and some of the incessant complaining of a select few amongst JP/JW forums, communities, etc in which a large chunk of the people posting are fans of said film or franchise. That just hits me as a complete lack of self awareness.

@Rhedosaurus wrote:
Also, I disagree that fans have no control over movies. Look at the fan outrage over Zilla '98, X3 and Wolverine: Origins, and GB 2016. Fan outrage forced Sony to cancel a sequel to that movie and forced Toho to make proper Godzilla movies, ret-conned X3 out of existance and got 2 proper Deadpool movies as well as Logan, and showed Sony what happens when you insult customers. So us fans do have power. We just need to use it.

Then I would recommend bringing your outrage to Universal directly through Twitter or something. No offense, but seeing the same type of complaining day after day on a Jurassic Park/World fan forum in which a large percentage of members are obviously going to look more favorably upon the films then your average moviegoer gets pretty tiresome pretty quickly, and also hits me as A) unproductive, and B) toxic. There are better channels to direct your ire towards Universal than a fan forum with little/no connection to the studio itself imo.

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