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 Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:05 pm

But then again that's how fandoms are. There has always been complaining and outrage in both the hardcore fanbase and the casual fans.

I clearly remember back in 2001 loooong threads of nonstop fan outrage over many different things in JP3, it was hostile. Then from the mid 2000's to the early 2010's (right before JW) the paleontology fans who were also Jurassic Park fans were complaining nonstop about how inaccurate the Jurassic series is overall and they have adopted a very very cynical attitude and hatred towards the series. Then there was the many who really disliked the new things JW did. So that's kind of how things have always been. The JP fandom has never been this united happy family.

I do agree that one should not label a fan "stupid" just because he/she likes a movie. But at the same time, keep in mind that when fans "hate" or point out that a movie did something wrong, it is not the fans fault. They are only reacting to that.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:43 pm

It's traditionally been far more united than it is now, I don't believe that's due to the films being polarizing.

And again, these are fan boards....and this section is JW:FK section of said fan boards. A little self awareness would be nice. Realize that this is a fan board, where opinions are going to be skewed in a more positive direction, and where a constant stream of the same type of complaining over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is eventually going to wear thin on people. Want to initiate change? I recommend going to the source. Want to complain about the subjective quality of a film over and over again? Maybe the fan forum for that particular film isn't the best place to do it.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:01 am

Just for the record, I don't consider myself a hater of Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom. With me it was more like I was just not that into it as soon as I saw that it was going to repeat way too many gimmicks from JW (Badass Hybrid main plot, Rexy and Blue as heroes, Claire and Owen having dated, Nublar nostalgia)...In fact the only thing that I actually hated about the movie  was the overkill of the T Rex comes out of nowhere to take down an antagonist while doing the same pose from the original. That was way too cheesy and it has been repeated so many times that it just felt like straight up comedy. Other than that I really thought the movie was going to have a "Meh, it was just ok" response from critics and the general public. So when I saw the huge backlash that is happening I was actually very surprised.

But anyways, back to the hardcore fans, @Tyrant Lizard if it makes you feel any better, on this very forum I have been dismissed as "stupid" once or twice by 1 or 2 posters simply for explaining the why behind the Rex Spino rematch. And I don't mind if others don't feel interest in the idea of a rematch at all, but what I do find a little annoying is that those very same 1 or 2 posters who flip out saying a rematch would the most childish and unrealistic thing are the very same ones that love and think it is perfectly realistic that for the fifth time in the series a T Rex appears out of nowhere to take down an antagonist (Twice in this film) and this time even doing the exact same pose to the point where it has become not even a cliche but rather comedy. That is super realistic, thrilling and mature, but 2 big carnivores fighting once more (like it happens in real life) ? Worst and most unrealistic idea ever acording to a very few. They think a triple team of a Rex, Raptor and Mosasaurus is great writing, while also being convinced that a rematch will ruin the entire film canon without a doubt.

So you can imagine how I feel whenever those very few dismiss me as "stupid". But that's just the way it is, do what I do, take it in stride and show everyone why you are not stupid at all by explaining why your points are valid and well thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:16 am

Seems like somewhat of a false parallel between a hypothetical rematch and a full, flesh and blood film.

Again, some self awareness in terms of what the people on this site (particularly this section) are here for would be kind of nice. Hell, there are a lot of us that call this forum home to escape the never ending stream of shit thrown in the direction of this franchise from the outside. It's sad to see that stream of dung throwing creep its way in here.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:36 am

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
Seems like somewhat of a false parallel between a hypothetical rematch and a full, flesh and blood film.

Again, some self awareness in terms of what the people on this site (particularly this section) are here for would be kind of nice. Hell, there are a lot of us that call this forum home to escape the never ending stream of shit thrown in the direction of this franchise from the outside. It's sad to see that stream of dung throwing creep its way in here.

My point was that I also get attacked on a personal level for being a fan of something, and that you can use those opportunities to counter the negative response with well thought arguments.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:41 am

And therein lies the point. There are people who would rather walk away than constantly have to put the effort into defending whatever it is that they're defending. Hell, it's why I don't engage in JP/JW discussion on other boards any more.

At the end of the day, we don't want people walking away from the fandom because they feel they constantly have to defend something. Hence why I refer to the constant stream being thrown at the film and series by a select few in the community as "septic". Because there's a very distinct chance that it could chase people away, and at the end of the day we're trying to grow our community.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:07 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
@Rhedosaurus wrote:
But wouldn't both of you agree that many people who didn't like the movie or the direction have valid arguments that should be listened to? And is it really a bad thing for those people to ask for improved movies?

Forgive me if this seems blunt, but you're missing the point. The issue isn't with those saying "I didn't care for FK because of this, this and this". The issue is with the people saying "FK sucked and if you disagree then you're an idiot", like the post I quoted earlier in the thread. There is a difference.

That and some of the incessant complaining of a select few amongst JP/JW forums, communities, etc in which a large chunk of the people posting are fans of said film or franchise. That just hits me as a complete lack of self awareness.


I don't disagree. But I think that those people in fan forums are much smaller then what others think.

@Rhedosaurus wrote:
Also, I disagree that fans have no control over movies. Look at the fan outrage over Zilla '98, X3 and Wolverine: Origins, and GB 2016. Fan outrage forced Sony to cancel a sequel to that movie and forced Toho to make proper Godzilla movies, ret-conned X3 out of existance and got 2 proper Deadpool movies as well as Logan, and showed Sony what happens when you insult customers. So us fans do have power. We just need to use it.

Then I would recommend bringing your outrage to Universal directly through Twitter or something. No offense, but seeing the same type of complaining day after day on a Jurassic Park/World fan forum in which a large percentage of members are obviously going to look more favorably upon the films then your average moviegoer gets pretty tiresome pretty quickly, and also hits me as A) unproductive, and B) toxic. There are better channels to direct your ire towards Universal than a fan forum with little/no connection to the studio itself imo.

I've been doing that via linking to my one FB page via my profile.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:23 pm

No one has to defend the franchise or film though, that is a choice. You can simply see someone's opinion, let it be just that, and move on. In fact, the whole 'stupid people like this film" thought process goes both ways.

I find the film decent, slightly better than mediocre, but not great. Yet, when I say that and express my reasoning I'm basically told I'm wrong, like I missed something or I have poor taste.

I also question the reason why anyone feels the need to change my opinion. Why does it matter if I dont love the movie but think its "ok"? Why do I have to love it and see it as amazing if I simply dont think its that great? In line with that thought, is it not better to be critical of things you dont enjoy and hope for improvement instead of simply excepting what you're handed as perfection? Honestly, we're getting a 3rd (6th) film no matter what anyone thinks about it, so why not ask for a little more instead of saying what a lot of people consider mediocre is good enough?

Honestly, I just feel that the criticism is better for the further development of the franchise than simply taking what we have as gospel and perfect. Please do keep in mind, I did enjoy the film and would give it a 5.5 to 6 rating. Its a good film but not a great fit for the franchise in delivery, though the ideas are great for the franchise. That's my opinion though, and I really dont think its going to be changed or that it needs to changed to begin with.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:48 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
And therein lies the point. There are people who would rather walk away than constantly have to put the effort into defending whatever it is that they're defending. Hell, it's why I don't engage in JP/JW discussion on other boards any more.

At the end of the day, we don't want people walking away from the fandom because they feel they constantly have to defend something. Hence why I refer to the constant stream being thrown at the film and series by a select few in the community as "septic". Because there's a very distinct chance that it could chase people away, and at the end of the day we're trying to grow our community.

Look at it on the bright side. Almost every single discussion here (and most in other major JP forums) seem calm, civil, respectful and understanding for the most part.

Even if some disagree on something a new fan joins this forum every day. In fact I almost never see posters going out of their way to "push" an agenda here or trying to force others to think a certain way or attacking others on a personal level just because of how they feel about the movie/series.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:12 am

@Spiegel wrote:


I also question the reason why anyone feels the need to change my opinion. Why does it matter if I dont love the movie but think its "ok"? Why do I have to love it and see it as amazing if I simply dont think its that great? In line with that thought, is it not better to be critical of things you dont enjoy and hope for improvement instead of simply excepting what you're handed as perfection? Honestly, we're getting a 3rd (6th) film no matter what anyone thinks about it, so why not ask for a little more instead of saying what a lot of people consider mediocre is good enough?

Because for me, and many other fans, it's a great movie. For you it is not, so you have all the rights to ask for more.

Anyway, you don't have to love the film, just like I don't have to hate it because you say it's bad. But I think confrontation is a good thing, especially because, you know, we're in a forum. So what's the point in discussing different opinions, if you already start with saying that you don't understand why someone would want to change your opinion?
"I think the movie is cool", "Well, I think it's bad!". The end?
Why not "I think the movies is cool because of this", "I think it's bad, and that reason you mentioned has still this flaws", "But that is not a flaw because bla bla", "Mmm, maybe, but you didn't consider that", "Oh you're right about this, I just changed my mind about that if that's the case".

Of course I won't make you change from "Hate this movie" to "Love this movie!", but for example while I loved the movie I learned some of the flaws thanks to other people's thoughts about it. I also learned great things about the movie that I myself didn't notice before thanks to discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:40 pm

@Tyrant Lizard wrote:
#TRexSpinorematch wrote:
But on Youtube videos about the original Jurassic Park the comments section is always nothing but positive...

JP is an all time classic though. Generally, my experience is that if the general consensus on a film is anything less than amazing, it tends to get murdered on Youtube comments sections. Films like Iron Man 2, Thor: The Dark World and JW all come to mind.

Don't get me wrong, there are obvious exceptions, TLW probably being the most notable within our community, but Youtube comments sections tend to be pretty septic when it comes to most forms of contemporary art.

I was just watching youtube videos about TLW and I was surprised to see that the vast majority of the comments section was positive. And keep in mind this is a movie that the internet keeps pushing the myth that "nobody cares for it" any chance they get.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:17 am

Quote :
I was just watching youtube videos about TLW and I was surprised to see that the vast majority of the comments section was positive. And keep in mind this is a movie that the internet keeps pushing the myth that "nobody cares for it" any chance they get.

I don't think it's that surprising, the negative reception to FK probably made a good amount of people finally realise that TLW is actually a pretty amazing film and a more than worthy sequel.

Btw my personal rating
(9,5/10) JP
(9,5/10) TLW
(7,5/10) JW
(5/10) JP3
(5/10) FK
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:23 am

@Bionic wrote:
Quote :
I was just watching youtube videos about TLW and I was surprised to see that the vast majority of the comments section was positive. And keep in mind this is a movie that the internet keeps pushing the myth that "nobody cares for it" any chance they get.

I don't think it's that surprising, the negative reception to FK probably made a good amount of people finally realise that TLW is actually a pretty amazing film and a more than worthy sequel.

Btw my personal rating
(9,5/10) JP
(9,5/10) TLW
(7,5/10) JW
(5/10) JP3
(5/10) FK

Well yeah TLW was always a well liked film but from 2006 to around now whenever internet articles or youtube videos mentioned it they talked about it as if it was this disaster of a film that nobody cares for. So it's reputation took a hit. Many in the general public jumped into the bandwagon of saying it is as bad as JP3 wich was never and has never been the case. There was no backlash to TLW but for many years the internet made this myth a fact. That is why now with this backlash to JWFK (and to a lesser degree JW), it is a nice surprise to see youtube comments sections with everyone trying to appreciate TLW.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:26 am

If Fallen Kingdom came out in '97 and The Lost World in 2018, people would say The Lost World is disappointing and they would start appreciating Fallen Kingdom more.

It's not like if Indy5 turns out to be bad, that makes Indy4 a film worth appreciating more than before.

That said, I think both The Lost World and Fallen Kingdom are underrated sequels that don't deserve the backlash they got (although I wouldn't say they are generally depicted as bad. Many people loved both movies, but the Internet tends always to make the negativity louder. It's not like JP3, which is seen as the worst-least good in the series by the majority).

I just don't think re-valuing an old film just because the new one isn't liked makes that much of a sense.
I mean, it's good that people start appreciating TLW more now, but it's really sad that it takes disliking a new movie in order to like that previous one. It feels to me just like another way to bash the newcomers, and not a true love/appreciation towards the old films. Like, if you like those films, why did you bash them for all these years, and now just say they're all so good, in order to make FK look even worse.
I don't know if I explained myself well.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:08 am

While I did see some appreciation for TLW on the internet (and i'm happy for it),from what I have seen most of the general audience/critic reviews of Fallen Kingdom on youtube think all of the JP sequels are unworthy trash, without exception. Which is why I think that honestly, it's all relative. I saw one reviewer who said that he would rather watch TLW than sit through FK again, but then he showed a clip of the gymnastics scene and said "god that movie s***ed" Laughing

Tbh I think that FK and TLW's main problems are the pacing- FK's is too quick (especially on the island), while TLW is way too slow in some areas. Personally, FK gets a slight edge because it never feels like it's drags on- seriously, even though it was a cool Godzilla reference and all, the SD scene imo felt really uneccesary and disconnected from the rest of the movie. And while I loved how TLW for it's exploration of the gray morality, Ludlow and Mills are pretty much on the same boat of the "cartoony greedy villain" stereotype (seriously, look at Ludlow and tell me his death wasn't just as cheesy as Mills's death) Very Happy Roland Tembo however is still the best Very Happy

Still, I appreciate both movies for what they do and I think both dreserve a 2nd chance to examine.

(But let's be honest, the real villain of TLW is Nick van Owen Laughing)
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:17 am

@Dv-218 wrote:
While I did see some appreciation for TLW on the internet (and i'm happy for it),from what I have seen most of the general audience/critic reviews of Fallen Kingdom on youtube think all of the JP sequels are unworthy trash, without exception. Which is why I think that honestly, it's all relative. I saw one reviewer who said that he would rather watch TLW than sit through FK again, but then he showed a clip of the gymnastics scene and said "god that movie s***ed" Laughing

Oh you watched MauLer's review about FK. Even if these critics are mostly objective when it comes to those movies, sometimes they like to hate for the sake of it. The thing about these kind of "critics" is, they want a second Jurassic Park. For them, Jurassic Park is the non plus ultra. He also said in one Podcast that he felt that TLW is pretty much too complicated and that he enjoyed JP/// way more. Some other dude said, that TLW boring is.

@Dv-218 wrote:
Tbh I think that FK and TLW's main problems are the pacing- FK's is too quick (especially on the island), while TLW is way too slow in some areas. Personally, FK gets a slight edge because it never feels like it's drags on- seriously, even though it was a cool Godzilla reference and all, the SD scene imo felt really uneccesary and disconnected from the rest of the movie. And while I loved how TLW for it's exploration of the gray morality, Ludlow and Mills are pretty much on the same boat of the "cartoony greedy villain" stereotype (seriously, look at Ludlow and tell me his death wasn't just as cheesy as Mills's death) Very Happy Roland Tembo however is still the best Very Happy

I would say the only problem in TLW is the transition from Sorna to San Diego. I did the math one time and wanted to know, how long would the ship needed to drive from Sorna to San Diego. The distance should be roughly 3.500 miles. So the S.S. Venture would need a couple days. That's why Malcolm and Sarah are looking fine again. I guess, if Spielberg would write "a couple days later", people wouldn't be that confused about that shot. Other than that, I can't tell where the pacing is messed up in TLW. I truly hated, when Mills said, that the ship will arrive in one day. Come on. There is no way in heaven, that this ship will come from central america to northern california in just one day. But that's one of my objective critiques. Hmmm, I wouldn't put Mills and Ludlow in the same spot. Ludlow was a scumbag, but his motivs are much more "honorable". He wants to save the company. Mills on the other hand is lying to everyone and is willing to murder. So I see where people got the "moustache twirling villain" thing


@Dv-218 wrote:
Still, I appreciate both movies for what they do and I think both dreserve a 2nd chance to examine.

And no one will take that away from you. I mean, people can be objective and say: "yeah these things are bad or not good", but you can still like it.
For example, I really like the Star Wars prequels, even with their flaws. I understand when people are pointing the flaws, but I still like the movies. I also understand when these critics like Chris Stuckmann, MauLer, Dishonored wolf or the Funhaus guys are listing all the flaws in FK. But I still like some of the shots, or the dinosaurs, or the Indoraptor. To me, I'm not that fond with Fallen Kingdom. I came out of the theater a little bit dissapointed. I've understood the people, who are genuinely liking it, but also the other fraction who didn't liked that much, because I've felt the same way.
To me personally, TLW is my favourite JP movie. I believe many will disagree or some will say, that the other sequels are better, but I'm not mad about it. I respect all the different opinions.

@Dv-218 wrote:
(But let's be honest, the real villain of TLW is Nick van Owen Laughing)

Sure. And Maisie is the true villain in JW FK. Razz


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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:19 am

@owenpratt wrote:
If Fallen Kingdom came out in '97 and The Lost World in 2018, people would say The Lost World is disappointing and they would start appreciating Fallen Kingdom more.

It's not like if Indy5 turns out to be bad, that makes Indy4 a film worth appreciating more than before.

That said, I think both The Lost World and Fallen Kingdom are underrated sequels that don't deserve the backlash they got (although I wouldn't say they are generally depicted as bad. Many people loved both movies, but the Internet tends always to make the negativity louder. It's not like JP3, which is seen as the worst-least good in the series by the majority).

I just don't think re-valuing an old film just because the new one isn't liked makes that much of a sense.
I mean, it's good that people start appreciating TLW more now, but it's really sad that it takes disliking a new movie in order to like that previous one. It feels to me just like another way to bash the newcomers, and not a true love/appreciation towards the old films. Like, if you like those films, why did you bash them for all these years, and now just say they're all so good, in order to make FK look even worse.
I don't know if I explained myself well.


Here's the problem with that. TLW wasn't made for the sake of setting up another movie. This new one did, or it at least felt like that at the end.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:14 am

@NikoRex wrote:
@Dv-218 wrote:
While I did see some appreciation for TLW on the internet (and i'm happy for it),from what I have seen most of the general audience/critic reviews of Fallen Kingdom on youtube think all of the JP sequels are unworthy trash, without exception. Which is why I think that honestly, it's all relative. I saw one reviewer who said that he would rather watch TLW than sit through FK again, but then he showed a clip of the gymnastics scene and said "god that movie s***ed" Laughing

Oh you watched MauLer's review about FK. Even if these critics are mostly objective when it comes to those movies, sometimes they like to hate for the sake of it. The thing about these kind of "critics" is, they want a second Jurassic Park. For them, Jurassic Park is the non plus ultra. He also said in one Podcast that he felt that TLW is pretty much too complicated and that he enjoyed JP/// way more. Some other dude said, that TLW boring is.

@Dv-218 wrote:
Tbh I think that FK and TLW's main problems are the pacing- FK's is too quick (especially on the island), while TLW is way too slow in some areas. Personally, FK gets a slight edge because it never feels like it's drags on- seriously, even though it was a cool Godzilla reference and all, the SD scene imo felt really uneccesary and disconnected from the rest of the movie. And while I loved how TLW for it's exploration of the gray morality, Ludlow and Mills are pretty much on the same boat of the "cartoony greedy villain" stereotype (seriously, look at Ludlow and tell me his death wasn't just as cheesy as Mills's death) Very Happy Roland Tembo however is still the best Very Happy

I would say the only problem in TLW is the transition from Sorna to San Diego. I did the math one time and wanted to know, how long would the ship needed to drive from Sorna to San Diego. The distance should be roughly 3.500 miles. So the S.S. Venture would need a couple days. That's why Malcolm and Sarah are looking fine again. I guess, if Spielberg would write "a couple days later", people wouldn't be that confused about that shot. Other than that, I can't tell where the pacing is messed up in TLW. I truly hated, when Mills said, that the ship will arrive in one day. Come on. There is no way in heaven, that this ship will come from central america to northern california in just one day. But that's one of my objective critiques. Hmmm, I wouldn't put Mills and Ludlow in the same spot. Ludlow was a scumbag, but his motivs are much more "honorable". He wants to save the company. Mills on the other hand is lying to everyone and is willing to murder. So I see where people got the "moustache twirling villain" thing


@Dv-218 wrote:
Still, I appreciate both movies for what they do and I think both dreserve a 2nd chance to examine.

And no one will take that away from you. I mean, people can be objective and say: "yeah these things are bad or not good", but you can still like it.
For example, I really like the Star Wars prequels, even with their flaws. I understand when people are pointing the flaws, but I still like the movies. I also understand when these critics like Chris Stuckmann, MauLer, Dishonored wolf or the Funhaus guys are listing all the flaws in FK. But I still like some of the shots, or the dinosaurs, or the Indoraptor. To me, I'm not that fond with Fallen Kingdom. I came out of the theater a little bit dissapointed. I've understood the people, who are genuinely liking it, but also the other fraction who didn't liked that much, because I've felt the same way.
To me personally, TLW is my favourite JP movie. I believe many will disagree or some will say, that the other sequels are better, but I'm not mad about it. I respect all the different opinions.

@Dv-218 wrote:
(But let's be honest, the real villain of TLW is Nick van Owen Laughing)

Sure. And Maisie is the true villain in JW FK. Razz

Maisie, Nick and Amanda are the ultimate evil trinity of the franchise- it was all an elaborate and long spanning conspiracy to take over the world using dinosaurs Laughing

Hmh, good point about Ludlow- I did not think of that. He did try to save his uncle's company from complete bankruptcy, and he never went as low as murdering a person like Mills did. I guess that it's just his actions in the movie and his death that made him seem like a villanous d-bag. I did like that brief moment in the docks when he realizes how much he f***ed up and breaks down to Malcolm and Sarah, made him feel like a real person. Mills did feel much more like a cartoon villain, and his lines didn't help either Very Happy

Agree on the ship thing, this was one of the 1st things I noticed about the movie. If it wasn't for Mills saying that the ship will arrive in 1 day, I would have just assumed the same thing as your explanation for the boat in SD. But, I will say that the transition between the island and the mainland in FK imo felt smoother than in TLW. I actually didn't mind the pacing on Sorna, it's just the Sand Diego scene that bothers me in it's disconnect.

Your last point is 100% spot on. Even though I enjoyed FK, I can definitely see it's flaws and criticizing them is completely fine by all accounts. For another example, I think JP3 is the weakest of the franchise- but I completely understand why people enjoy it and I don't bash them for that. In the end, it's all an opinion Very Happy
I actually find TLW to be a really good movie, and I will agree that the characters felt better written than in FK.
Not to mention, dinosaurs acting like animals is always a plus. It's just that I prefer the novel more.

However we can definitely agree that Ken "buffalo" Wheatley doesn't hold a candle to Tembo Very Happy

(BTW love your art)
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:43 am

@owenpratt wrote:
If Fallen Kingdom came out in '97 and The Lost World in 2018, people would say The Lost World is disappointing and they would start appreciating Fallen Kingdom more.

It's not like if Indy5 turns out to be bad, that makes Indy4 a film worth appreciating more than before.

That said, I think both The Lost World and Fallen Kingdom are underrated sequels that don't deserve the backlash they got (although I wouldn't say they are generally depicted as bad. Many people loved both movies, but the Internet tends always to make the negativity louder. It's not like JP3, which is seen as the worst-least good in the series by the majority).

I just don't think re-valuing an old film just because the new one isn't liked makes that much of a sense.
I mean, it's good that people start appreciating TLW more now, but it's really sad that it takes disliking a new movie in order to like that previous one. It feels to me just like another way to bash the newcomers, and not a true love/appreciation towards the old films. Like, if you like those films, why did you bash them for all these years, and now just say they're all so good, in order to make FK look even worse.
I don't know if I explained myself well.

Though it is hard to compare 1997 with 2018 because there was no social media back then, the fact is that back in 1997 there did not seem to be any significant backlash towards The Lost World. No one seemed to hate or strongly dislike the movie. Quite the opposite. The vast majority of people seemed to like it or at the very least accept it.

Now compare that to Fallen Kingdom in 2018 where almost right after the movie premiered, many critics, youtubers and fans seem to be very dissapointed with Fallen Kingdom. And these people don't know each other yet they all had very similar reactions So.it's not like they are calling each other to make up some loud hate group against the movie. The movie was just felt like an honest let down by many. Notice how almost everyone who disliked the movie.seems to have almost the same reaction. It is not just the internet being negative just for the sake of it nor a case of negativity being always louder.

Not to mention, I don' think Fallen Kingdom would have been more popular if it was released in 1997. Back then fans wanted more T Rexes, raptors and dinosaurs. Not sure a mutant hybrid centered movie would have done well.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:44 am

Everyone I know who I've seen it with or without, really enjoyed the film despite it's flaws, maybe we all just have shit taste according to others... Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:05 am

@dance2nite wrote:
Everyone I know who I've seen it with or without, really enjoyed the film despite it's flaws, maybe we all just have shit taste according to others... Rolling Eyes

I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that liking this movie is due to "poor taste" in movies.

I was only making a point that the amount of people who dislike this movie is significant and that the dislike for it is not due to negativity being louder.

But in no way shape or form do I believe that if you like it there must be something wrong with you.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:16 am

Quote :
Everyone I know who I've seen it with or without, really enjoyed the film despite it's flaws, maybe we all just have shit taste according to others...

And the people I've spoken to (not that many as there seems to be significantly less hype for it) were at least a bit underwhelmed or just thought it was kinda alright.
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:32 am

I think a lot of it comes down to what you expected/hoped for versus what you were willing to accept.

Action flick: nailed it
Horror flick: nailed it
Dinosaurs: nailed it
- - - -
Character development: failed
Science: failed
Engaging characters: failed
- - -
Story line: failed and yet nailed it
Progression of the franchise: nailed it and failed

It's really just a mixed bag. If you're ok with an action/horror type flick full of dinosaurs you'll be really happy but if you were hoping for a rich and fulfilling story you might be happy yet disappointed. If you were looking to fall in love with some characters and a deep meaningful plot you'll be disappointed. At least in my opinion. That's why I can say I did enjoy it but didnt love it. I think people all have their opinions based on what they hoped for versus what they got and how much each of those thoughts were catered to.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:50 am

The horror/thriller aspect of it is one that most seem to like about it. Whenever people list the things they hated about the movie that is usually.never one of the.reasons.

By the way an interesting (and to some sad) thing that I have noticed recently is that with all this backlash towards Fallen Kingdom, Jurassic World's reputation also seems to be taking heavy hits.

While Jurassic World did get some hate back in 2015 due to the military plot and the final fight, it was still seen as a summer popcorn flick. But now I very often see comments like "I hated JWFK, but JW was almost as horrible".

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:53 am

Tbh one of the things I noticed is that a lot of people who hated FK (and I mean really hated, not just criticism) hated JW too since it's release, so they walked in already "knowing" that FK will be terrible too. It's sort of a self-fullfiling prophecy.
And I remember that besides the generally positive or "it was ok" reactions, the gigantic hatred for JW existed back then too (the heels controversy, the writing, military dinosaurs, not living up to expectations or the original's spirit and the whole "no feathers" thing). FK did not make it bigger, it just reignited it once again.

Personally, I thought that FK was a much better movie than JW in general, but I can see why people who hated JW are upset with this one (since it's a direct continuation).

Good point about the horror/thriller aspect- it's actually one of the few things I have seen people who hate or love FK on the internet agree upon (a rare occasion Laughing), and most of the people who were at the screening I was in were talking about how "scary" and "intense" the movie was, especially during the mansion scenes- so, it's safe to say that this is one of the aspects the movie did get right Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:40 am

I wouldn't generalize that, I've read so many comments from people that genuinely liked JW and were quite disappointed by FK (I'm in that group too).
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:46 am

Oh, that's absoulutely fine. I am not denying that this group exists, I was simply referring to a number of people on reddit and youtube who just rabidly hate on both movies non-stop. I am fully aware that many people liked JW but did not like FK, and I can definitely see why. I will say that it probably has more rewarch value and the climax was more statisfying, though I personally like FK's loose ending.

Just a question, what do you prefer in JW over FK? Not to start a debate, just curious to hear differing opinions Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:19 pm

I actually did not go into Fallen Kingdom wanting to hate it or with a mindset of "Let's see how horrible this is"

It was more like since Jurassic World I was never liked the whole hybrids thing since it takes away all of the focus from what the actual dinosaurs can do. But what I really really hated about JW was the final fight. It was probably the most dissapointing moment in the series for me. I was like "So once again a bigger badder therapod takes down a T Rex nearly killed it, had to be saved by a raptor and did not even get the final blow?"....14 years for that? I still can not believe how people can seriously say Rexy had "redemption".

But even with that, I did not want to hate on JWFK. It was more like when I started watching trailers it was obvious that they were looking to repeat almost everything that they think made money from JW; Rexy and Blue as "heroes", Plot centers around a bigger badder hybrid, Claire and Owen break up only to get back together, and so on...

So my expectations were low from the start. I was not looking to hate on it since this time around I knew what I was getting into. I was hoping that the movie would have some surprise in it that I would like but the movie just left me with a very "Meh, I don't think I am interested in this anymore". I did however really hate the whole TRex out of nowhere to take down an antagonist gimmick being overdone so much. I am very surprised that is not mentioned that much as one of the reasons why the movie has recieved hate because for all the talk that some hardcore fans did about wanting this movie do be more mature and serious that is an overkill of a cliche yet some like it.

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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:23 am

I think the main problem with the franchise is the creators, and holders of the rights, to every single one of the fans, all have their own idea of what the franchise is, what it stands for, and where it should go. Everybody has their own opinion on the franchise, and the problem is few people are willing to look at the franchise from a different perspective than their own.

And even the subjective points of view, get criticized for turning a blind eye to perceived issues that mess with the flow of the film. Ultimately, while continuity does matter, no work of fiction has a pitch perfect line of continuity, and retroactive decisions have happened in other works before. Star Wars, the original King Kong, and even as far back as Sherlock Holmes.

You're never going to have a film that gives you the  exact same experience and emotions that its predecessor has. It's a one and done type of thing.

Change is ultimately necessary for any type of series (books, television, film, etc.), because you can't just bank on doing the same thing over and over and over again.

And what Jurassic Park represents is going to be different from person to person. Not any one idea is the definitive answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Analyzing the why behind the backlash of Fallen Kingdom and how valid it is   Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:54 pm

@Dv-218 wrote:
Oh, that's absoulutely fine. I am not denying that this group exists, I was simply referring to a number of people on reddit and youtube who just rabidly hate on both movies non-stop. I am fully aware that many people liked JW but did not like FK, and I can definitely see why. I will say that it probably has more rewarch value and the climax was more statisfying, though I personally like FK's loose ending.

Just a question, what do you prefer in JW over FK? Not to start a debate, just curious to hear differing opinions Smile

Well first of all I felt that the pacing was way better in JW, even with no dino mayhem on screen did it never feel boring. And whenever the Indominus was approaching I could feel the tension and the extreme menace she exuded. In FK the first act with Nublar was extremeley rushed, I didn't feel any atmosphere on the island, it all happened way too quickly for me, whereas the second act with the ship and all leading up to the auction felt dragged and for the first time ever in a JP film did I feel boredom creeping.

While the characters are not extremely well written in JW I did really hate some of the sidecharacters in FK. Franklin and Zia were insuffrable, the villains were too corny and it's just weird that none of the more positve characters became victims.

The story in JW is by no means a drama masterpiece but with FK it was just too silly, think about it the story really makes no sense at all. With the way the plot progresses it all feels so forced it does not flow organically from one storybeat to the next. It's as if the script yelled at me "we're getting off the island no matter how outlandish and silly it all may seem". And I get it a certain suspension of disbelief is required, it's sci-fi with dinosaurs after all. But like I said the progression is just too forced with terrible characters and very clunky dialogue. Owen's and Blue's supposedly deeper realtionship also seemed more like an afterthought compared to how Blue came across a little more untamed in JW. I also wasn't a huge fan of the dinosaurs as weapons subplot in JW but in FK with the auction and the lasertracking it just screams ridiculous from every angle and risks to the turn the series into a parody of what it once was.

Then the whole evil and hero dinosaurs thing, very repetitive and again just pretty silly. I also thought that there was some very weak acting, Pineda for example and while I liked BD Wong in JW he seemed quite a bit less convincing in FK. As a matter of fact there was always a moment where I felt like the actors were too aware of how nonsensical the whole story is and thus they struggled to really make believe. It also does not help when the script has too many deus ex dinosaurs moments that let's the protagonists escape out of a seemingly helpless situatuion at the very last moment. It never feels as if they are really in any danger.
And another thing was the extreme tonal mismatch of the forced and not so funny comedy with the more horror like darker scenes, JW had a consistent style throughout. I mean a more gifted writer could pull off a strong tonal change but Colin and Derek failed here. The unnecessary humor also killed the suspense in some scenes for me, the blood transfusion or the Baryonyx in the bunker should have been thrilling peaks but instead they were more played for laughs which was a very bad idea.

All in all for me it was a film with too many obvious goofs, a bad screenplay, some weak acting and at times a very outlandish story (again a better writer could have paved a better way for the evolution of the franchise). It just didn't really feel like a JP film to me (except for the great opening sequence) and sadly the dinosaurs have lost their sense of wonder, awe and danger (or at least the script didn't portray them adequately enough)


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